The special operations contact and training of the ATF before the raid 2/28/93
the going ahead on 2/28/93 after they were found out
the execution style deaths of the 4 ATF agents/bodyguards
the concentration on the second floor in the 2/28/93 raid
the absence of ambulances on 2/28/93
the deputizing of the Texas Rangers
the special handling of the media
the Davidians wouldn't give up
the Koresh on site preoccupation with end-of-the-world prophecies even though wounded and under siege, when he could have done it on the outside or in prison
the absence of firefighting equipment on 4/19/93
the people not leaving the building despite the tear gas
the various states of decomposition of the bodies
the annihilation of virtually all occupants
the tanks continuing to batter the walls after the fire started
the delaying of the Texas Rangers from the scene while a body and door were removed
the limiting of ME Peerwani to just the cause of death (e.g. gunshot) and not the manner of death (e.g. suicide, homicide, accident) ...
the missing door
the liquefication of the remains
the bulldozing of the grounds
the special treatment of a "spill"
the firing of Sessions
the death of Foster
the offering up and then kid glove treatment of ATF/FBI people involved
the sentences of some survivors, the status of other survivors
the missing reference to the hole in the bunker and the ATF/special operations contacts in the official reports
the missing and misclassified evidence of military involvement
the actions of the attorneys and investigators, formal and informal
the survivors have not mentioned hearing any gunshots
the fact that we haven’t heard of anyone on 4/19/93 helping the Davidians wounded by gunfire
the fact that Caddell was satisfied to depose only 3 Delta Force members when film shows there were at least five on the scene 4/19/93

"…I might be less skeptical of the government's actions if it were not for that boondoggle at Ruby Ridge. I have come to a tentative conclusion that these two events are accounted for by the government's overreaction to the acts of a few thugs who cloak themselves in religion and the government's subsequent (and very human) efforts to cover up the facts that they had made major mistakes which cost the lives of their own and totally innocent children…."

There are organizations (or at least members of organizations -- such as the Aryan Nation) and other individuals in the U.S. that spout off at the mouth about the violent overthrow of the government and the destruction of any group or persons they do not care for.

Sometimes, talking changes to action (not necessarily by the same people -- but perhaps in the same group or inspired by the talk) and violence does occur, i.e. the cold-blooded murder of the Denver DJ, which took place some time before the raid on Ruby Ridge….

It is my understanding that the crime with which Weaver was charged was initiated by a police informant who had infiltrated the Aryan Nation after the Denver murder, apparently in an effort to keep an eye on groups who had talked about the violence they were capable of inflicting. These same groups are made up of individuals who have a paranoid reaction to any action of the government. (Whether that paranoia is appropriate can be argued some place else. The fact is, it exists.)

It seems to me that the government and the groups do not trust each other (which is putting it very mildly) and look at the other as a very real and menacing enemy.

While I am not suggesting that the Weaver family or even every member of the Aryan Nation (with whom the Weaver family had some contact - note I am saying contact, not association) are violent, I am suggesting that they would be in a group of people closely looked at by the government after the murder of the DJ and other events that took place in the same time-frame.

It is in that context that the raids on Ruby Ridge and Waco occurred. The government was hypersensitive to what they saw as a potential for violence against innocent citizens by the members of these groups and those who appeared to support them (including the Weaver's), especially anyone who relied on a religious perspective to support their positions. The Weaver's saw what they took to be double dealing by a government they already feared (remember that ... feared).

So, a standoff resulted. Then, when the government took action to arrest Randy Weaver (after about a year of pussyfooting around), Sammy Weaver (13 or 14 years old) was shot in the back and killed. In that same encounter, a U.S. Marshall was killed.

Now, we have two of the government's worst nightmares rolled into one -- a botched operation (no way to hide it -- a child was killed (shot in the back)) and the death in the line of duty of one of its own.

The result: Over-reaction by the government to perceived threat by a group that already regards the government as a very real enemy and subsequent counter-reaction by that group.

The action taken by the government (like the other best-laid plans of mice and men) went awry and the result was over-kill (literally) of the intended operation. Waco occurred less than a year after Ruby Ridge. I believe the same mindset (on both sides) prevailed, just reinforced by the events at Ruby Ridge. Some of the government agents were at both. So, it is not surprising that a similar reaction occured.

Cvengr "……Over-reaction may have been a factor, certainly, but IMHO by reviewing the spotlight focused on the event, the political point of view of the Administration, the mechanics to replace seasoned GS and executive service employees in bulk with politically favored good ol' boys, obfuscation of professioanl teamwork on the side of law enforcement by the nature of the "joint" organization with unity of command paramount to answer almost directly to the WH/AG,...there's IMHO something much more sinister involved.

Let's look at some of the similarities between Waco and the Elian affair when looking at possible courses of action by the AG/WH. In both cases, we have a socialistic leaning democratic liberal ideology which desires to display full authority over a situation by the use of force. …..In both situations, the typical conservative point of view to respect law and order is molded by liberal press spin to imply conservatives are heinous and action must be taken, violent action if necessary by the government. …..Both situations place the Clinton Administration in a contrived "good guy" position with adverse and deplorable results. This contradiction tends to encourage political, if not action to resolve a litany of wrongs.

The mechanics of the operation implies action must be taken against law enforcement, which in turn implies honest and honorable officers attempting to respect the rights of all parties will be placed in the defensive in the future. This is the natural political response to these activities. Considering the perspective of the democratic socialists, if they are not in power, this will allow them to commit criminal activity will less inhibition from law enforcement. It additionally allows the democratic socialists to blame law enforcement and discourage its conservative approach.

Let's take the converse action. Rather than blaming law enforcement, to blame the victims. In this case, the rights enumerated and unmentioned in the COnstitution and Bill of Rights are obviously ignored to the hilt, providing precedence for the Administration to continue their abuse of power. ……This same scenario has arisen with Elian.

Blame the Cuban-Americans for "keeping the boy from his father", which promotes government intervention. Concurrently, the Clinton Administration ignores the obviously heinous reputation of the Castro dictatorship and tyranny of the Cuban government over many of the most basic of commonly accepted rights by US citizens, while encouraging a contrived violent conflict to bait public emotion against law enforcement.

The bottom line is that this Administration seeks every method to destroy the implicit values which support an accountably responsible free society. Contrived power plays open their future options so they have an emotionally political power base to attempt further rebellion against law and order if conservatives win politically, concurrently seizing opportunity to further eliminate any opposition to their power politics if they succeed in power games. (IMHO) This is the least ethical and most amoral Administration and Democratic party in our history. …."

"…. Even Clinton had only been 'in the saddle' a short while. And with all the things on a new President's plate -- especially one with no previous Washington experience -- how likely is it that the BATF's interest in some obscure cult in Texas would even come to his attention? It's not like BATF is a seriously important part of the government... it's a nit in the grand scheme of things. One could imagine a whole briefing on federal law enforcement that gave the BATF one Powerpoint slide in a three-hour presentation

Freeper gwmoore "…..RW Reactionary, I agree with your assessment, that this was,ultimately, one of those "it seemed like a good idea at the time" operations that just went belly-up with too many people trying to be Rambo all at the same time.

Now, my observations and a question: I live right outside of Philadelphia, and am just about at the highest point where one could see West Phila from my roof. In 1985, there was an operation by the Philadelphia Police against an organization called MOVE (it isn't an acronym, it just means move, really nothing). These people were described as a "back-to-nature" group, a cult, a revolutionary group, etc. What they really were/are (they still exist) is still unclear.

They had fortified a house on Osage Avenue with railroad ties, a roof bunker, etc, and were constantly on a PA system screaming,cursing,lecturing the neighborhood 24/7. The neighbors, naturally, got mad as hell, and were asking the city to do something. They did, and what happened was remarkably similar to Waco, even if it did transpire over one day. Briefly, in the morning, almost 10,000 rounds (if you can believe the reports) were fired at the house, I don't believe anyone knows who fired first. The neighborhood had been evacuated, and there was explosive breaching of the basement walls to introduce water and tear gas into the house. some photographs show that the front of the house was rubble (If you are not familiar with row houses, they are an entire street, with each house joined to the next (I have lived in one for 29 years, so am familiar with the construction). A fire department squirt/snorkel was pumping water into the house all day (There were women and children in the house all this time). Sometime after 5 PM, a decision was made to remove the "bunker" (actually kind of a shack) on the roof, and a homemade satchel charge was dropped from a state police helo. The detonation was not all that impressive (was carried live, naturally on all the local TV stations), but a fire started, a decision was made to "let the bunker burn". It burned, all right, and a chain-reaction fire started that destroyed 2&1/2 city blocks. There were 2 survivors, and what was left looked like Dresden after the firestorm.

Point being, this was an operation by the police that simply turned into a "Cluster ****" because too many people made too many wrong decisions and got carried away with their own importance. Heads rolled over this. This became prime conspiracy theory material, etc.

My take is that Waco may have started the same way, someone at BATF had some intel on "illegal firearms", their collective backs were against the wall because of a potential loss in funding, and the operation was concieved both as a lesson to show potential problem persons (insert your definition of problem here) that the BATF would not take "violations" lightly, and as a PR event to get video to show why the apppropriations comittee should give them continued funding, and to preserve their independence. Too many people got involved, the level of operation escalated, and the tragedy occurred.

Now the question. Do you have any additional source material such as video tape from the first raid by BATF. All I have available is that sequence with the attempted entry to the second floor with the agents on the roof. Nothing in this video looks right, you hear a lot of firing, but not too much damage until one of the agents is hit, and extricated from the roof..end of video.. is there more of this available anywhere? My big question is "what was in the second floor room?" also is there any more recording of what happened in that first raid..

Freeper Ada Coddington 5/18/00 "…..After February 28 what happened was inevitable without outside intervention. The question is whether the begging bowl thesis is correct. That the ATF does nothing to deny it suggests it is a red herring, and what a red herring it must be if the ATF is willing to let the public believe that it would attack a church full of women, children and old people for money. …."

Freeper Tacis "…I'd like to add under "Accidents," another possibility, "incompetence." Gov't employees are boobs, under-intellegent folks who are motivated only by making their own numbers look good. Some jerk on site realized his OT $s were almost gone and it would be a negative on his performance review unless he did something. Same with all the Martian landers that were lost, the fires at Los Alamos, State Dept. lap tops. Most often, after a blunder, to avoid discovery or shift the blame, gov't. folks a_ù�­ _�âpill lie, des_�Ù€ evidence, and stone wall to evade blame. …."

Freeper Glenn "….I have always thought that this was a new administration anxious to piss on some fenceposts and let the locals know there was a new sheriff in town. I am of the mind that the BATF, FBI, et al, were cowboys who jumped at the chance to try out all their gadgets under the influence of testosterone. We saw the same thing at Ruby Ridge. Macho, macho, cops coupled to neophyte bosses turned out to be a very volatile combination. …."

"…. I believe that the leaking of info to the local media about the attack just prior to it first occuring could've been done on purpose. That would help the BD's prepare psychologically and thus be more likely to fight back. I think the government wanted those 4 forward BATF agents that were killed to be only 4 of 40. First they leaked that they were coming. Next they came with 3 helicopters and shot through the roof, killing several. Next they came and lined up outside. Whoever planned this was looking for a bloodbath it does appear. Clinton and Clinton's people are smart. They do what they intend to do.

Red Jones "…Why did the government go onto Randy Weaver's land and start shooting innocent civilians the way they did with no warning? Just like at Waco, it makes no sense, but they did it. I think because they want a military conflict with elements that can be said are 'right-wing' as this type of a conflict suits "somebody"'s agenda and those "somebody"'s are in charge. This element of our own government that would seek military conflict between and among Americans must be flushed out and defeated by prosecuting the criminals who murdered the civilians at Waco. Our elected representatives who each swear to uphold the constitution are cowards before this task. Unless the mainstream media is on board or unless the monopoly on the news by the mainstream media can be broken, nothng can be done about these murders.

Wake up and smell the roses. Several credible people wanting to provide evidence against the government regarding Waco are dead. The evidence including video overwhelmingly shows that these people were murdered in cold blood. Our news media simply won't report on the evidence concerning Waco. It is one of many stories that they flee. If they're not being held on a leash with regards to certain stories, then up is down and down is up.

Many of our elected representatives are aware that they exist in an environmnet of limits, there are certain questions, certain issues that they simply cannot explore. More than one of the individual congresspersons who heard the Waco testimony said that they could tell they were being lied to the whole time from the Attorney General on down. If you watch the questions and answers, then you can see it easily as well and yet it's not news.

It takes a special type of an evil for Americans in the employ of the federal monster to kill in cold blood American men, women and children in their home. These people did this. The American civil authorities should hunt these people down, arrest these people, try these people and jail these people for the rest of their lives.

Those who are caught on film leaning out of a helicopter and shooting down into un-armed civilians in a surprise attack are not innocent. They are guilty of murder.

Those who shot incendiary grenades into the building knew that they were burning that building down when they did this. They should be arrested and put on trial for murder.

Those who jumped out of the armored personnel carrier to fix a special explosive over the concrete building and then ran into that building to spray the occupants with bullets are guilty of murder. The evidence shows that somebody wearing a US government uniform did these things.

Those who fired their guns into the group of civilians trying to escape on 4/19/93 are guilty of murder and should be treated as such.

It is my view that both in the summer of 92 and the spring of 93 the government sought military conflict with elements in America that can be called 'right-wing'. In both cases the citizens refused to fight with the government. That our governemnt would seek this conflict is very bad news. A free people would cut the funding for a federal agency such as the BATF that was so important in the execution of those events of 92 and 93 as a means of chastising federal law enforcement agencies for their bad deeds. Instead, we've doubled or tripled funding of the BATF over the last 8 years. We are not a free people. Our masters smile on this agency and have plans for it, if we were free, then this would not occur, we would've moved that agency's funding and functions into another agency in order to chastise bad behavior by these federal cops. ….."

"…..The tanks continued to punch holes in the walls to ventilate the building. It's possible that the CS assault wasn't really an assault, but a method of pumping the building full of fuel to ensure it's complete destruction as a means of hiding the times, places and circumstances of the Davidians' deaths and the evidence of the Federal forces' (FIB, ATF, USArmy, etc.) crimes. There's video footage in both Linda Thompson's Waco II: The Big Lie Continues and in Waco: A New Revelation of the CEVs bulldozing building debris into the fire as it burns, so this strongly suggests destruction of evidence as the motive.

"….The survivors' accounts of the last day's events suggest that everyone was alive and that the mothers and children had taken refuge in the pantry to escape the destruction of the building by the tanks. According the Thibodeau, the adults wore gas masks and covered the children's faces with rags dipped in buckets of water. Yet, the Texas Ranger in charge of the scene after the fire reported that he didn't find any gas masks or buckets inside the pantry. Neither is there any evidence of anyone wearing gas masks in any of the coroner's photographs or autopsy reports. ……

Let's re-examine the location of the gunshot wound victims:

Hallway (room next to the kitchen)
7 - Steve Schneider - gunshot wound, mouth – dismembered
8 - David Koresh - gunshot wound, mid-forehead

Kitchen
20 - Jimmy Riddle - gunshot wound, mid-forehead
21 - Steven Henry - gunshot wounds
22 - Phillip Henry - multiple gunshot wounds, head and upper torso

Inside Pantry
31A - Aisha Summers - gunshot wound to the left chest
31D-E - parts of human skull, 11-14 yrs., gunshot wound to left skull
43 - Lisa Ferris - gunshot wound to the left head
44 - John Doe - gunshot wound to the left chest
45 - Mary Jean Borst - gunshot wound of the back – dismembered
47 - Jane Doe - gunshot wound to the head
53 - Jane Doe 5-5.5 yrs. - gunshot wound to the left chest
56 -- Abigail Martinez - gunshot wound left skull
57 - Martinez - gunshot wound of the left chest
66 - Jane Doe - gunshot wounds to the left back and thorax
67-B - infant - gunshot wound to the head

Pantry Roof
34 - Sonobe - gunshot wound of the head
35 - Shari Doyle - gunshot wound left posterior head
36 - David M. Jones - gunshot wound of the head
39 - Novellette Hipsman - gunshot wounds of the head and chest
41 - Neil Vaega - gunshot wound to the head

…….We know that Jimmy Riddle was shot in the head and that his body was recovered inside the building, from the kitchen area in front of the pantry. We also know that his body was extensively mutilated from being run over by a tank tread.

Common sense dictates that he was shot first, then run over by the tank. But the only known tank activity in the area where his body was recovered was the one that was supposed to have been gassing the pantry, so it's a reasonable assumption that his body was mutilated by this tank, which means that he was probably already dead when this tank broke through the walls and made a frontal assault on the pantry.

Phillip Henry was shot multiple times about the head and upper torso and his brother Steven Henry was also reported to have been shot multiple times, although it isn't exactly clear where he was struck. All three of these mens' bodies were recovered from the same part of the building. They were shown on the recovery chart to have been right next to each other.

John McBean was supposed to have died from the effects of the fire and his body was recovered from within the pantry. He was decapitated and completely dismembered. His head was never found.

Mary Borst's remains were recovered from just in front of the pantry, and she was supposed to have been shot in the back, yet she too was dismembered. There is a clean cut visible in her upper right arm that marks where her arm appears to have been lopped off in one swipe as if by a machete.

Common sense dictates that the people whose bodies were recovered from within the pantry and who were shot in head didn't get there by themselves, so they were either shot while already inside the pantry or they were shot somewhere else and their bodies were dumped inside the pantry.

When we look at the gunshot wound victims whose bodies were recovered from atop the pantry, we find that there is little evidence that they were shot from behind the building by the people supposedly recorded on the FLIR. First of all, the shooters wouldn't have been able to see these people because there was only one small window per floor in the back wall of the 4-story tower, so the shooters would have had to rake the back of the tower with automatic weapons fire in order to have any chance of hitting, much less, killing the people above the pantry. Yet according to Dave Hardy, very little of the automatic weapons fire recorded on the FLIR was being directed at the center of the building. Most was being directed at the chapel and the underground shelter, where no gunshot wound victims' bodies were recovered.

The FLIR doesn't fit with the rest of the physical evidence and neither do the survivor's accounts. None of them has ever once mentioned any of the gruesome facts I've related above, so I'll ask you. Why not?

The survivors were supposedly running around the inside of the building during the final hour, yet none have mentioned the running gun battle between the Branch Davidians and the feds. Why not?

Why haven't they mentioned that the feds were firing into the tower, the chapel and the underground shelter?

Of all the people I've listed that supposedly died of gunshot wounds, why haven't we heard about anyone helping the wounded back to safety?

Doyle and Thibodeau have both recounted hearing many sounds including the sounds of the screams of the dying people, yet neither has mentioned hearing any gunshots. Why not?

I would have to speculate to answer these questions, but I sure would like to hear Doyle's and Thibodeau's answers. ......"

We know from photos taken from video contained in LT's Waco II: The Big Lie Continues that there were more than three CAG (or SOG, or Delta or JTF-6) guys there. I hate to sound so cynical, but why was Caddell satisfied to question only three under oath then pronounce that he thought that it closed the book on Delta involvement at Waco?

i have few ideas. The more I read, the more i am confused. In addition to the alamo-girl's fourth edition, this evening i read the ashes of waco by dick j. reavis, syracuse university press, 1995.

it appears that the federal government never did approach the branch davidians in good faith. the intent from the beginning was to destroy the compound and the occupants.

the drug charges were merely a ruse to provide an excuse for military assistance without charge to the atf.

judge smith in san antonio over-turned the jury's decision in the trial of the davidians. The owner of a television station in tulsa, ok was so incensed by this injustice that he and his wife invested their life savings in a film in defense of the davidians.

We may never know the intent of the u.s. government….two reasons that come to mind for me are:

From Alamo-Girl "…..You said the drug charges were merely a ruse to provide an excuse for military assistance without charge to the atf.

Something has always bothered me about this because the only explanation I've heard is that the ATF was strapped for budget to carry out their operation to serve the warrant. Jeepers!!! According to Higgins, they didn't even have probable cause in December of 92 - yet we now know they were already working with Special Forces!

What if it were the other way around? What if the military or intelligence people were using the ATF as a cover for their purpose, i.e. to shutdown the Davidians, and found this way to pay for it? If that were true, then the following quote from Dave Hardy's conversations with Carlos Ghigliott would make more sense to me:

…..My thesis on the military/intelligence using ATF is grounded in the presumption that they couldn't just go in and shut down a civilian operation without being noticed. The incident described under wooly_mammoth’s "intelligence related shutdown" section is another case-in-point where the ATF was a cover for what appears to be an intelligence related shutdown.

The key here is that a snail's pace ATF investigation that was going nowhere and lacked probable cause - suddenly became important enough for Special Forces, or as US Attorney Johnston said "....the ATF initially discussed capturing Koresh outside his compound and then searching inside. Inexplicably, he said, plans shifted in December to a big paramilitary raid. ..." (The Dallas Morning News 9/13/99 Lee Hancock )

So, if the ATF were doing the job for the intelligence/military people, seems to me they'd logically expect them to pay for it. IMHO that would be more logical than the ATF creating a big paramilitary media show for improved image and more appropriations - while at the same time having it paid for with drug allegations they didn't even bother to mention in the warrant.

It was, after all, BATF Director Higgins himself that said they didn't have probable cause at the very same time they were turning it into a paramilitary operation...

Freeper rmvh "….The people in the Christian religious group at Waco were executed by the Clinton Department of "Justice" because their leader was alleged to possess illegal guns. The salient issue stated by Washington for this assault was gun control. But something went wrong. The people were innocent and they died. People don't like to hear or read the word "execution" but that's what it was. …..

…..The plan was that the ATF would flex it's muscles publicly and demonstrate the prowess of the new Clinton Justice Department in gun control, a wonderful vote getting slogan for Washington politicians and their puppets in the various State governments. The Christians were selected and portrayed on radio and television across America as dangerous and deviant because of their guns and their life style...mostly retracted after their deaths and later proven untrue. …..

......When the ATF agents lost control of their own actions and people began to die on television and in real time, the equally incompetent FBI took over. The only cover up that could never be reversed was to call these murders self inflicted. This they did. ….."

Freeper Yellow Rose of Texas "….Rep. Traficant, House of Representatives, May 17, 2000
Mr. Speaker, who is lying about Waco ? Scientist Carl Ghigliotti said the FBI lied, that they did fire automatic weapons into the burning building. But Vector Data Systems of England said the FBI did not lie. Two scientific groups totally disagree……. But something stinks. Vector gets hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts from the FBI. Carl Ghigliotti was just found dead. To boot, FBI audio tapes of the burning building are now lost. To boot, FBI autopsy reports confiscated of victims are now missing……..Beam me up, Mr. Speaker. This is not a Justice Department. This is a cover-up. We need an investigation. Congress should pass H.R. 4105 and put some oversight on what is developing into a police state in America……"

Freeper rmvh "…The people in the Christian religious group at Waco were killed by the Government armored and gas assault because their leader was alleged to possess illegal guns. None were convicted of crime. But something went wrong. Scores of innocent people died. People don’t like to hear or read the word "execution" but that’s what happened.

The plan was that the ATF would flex it’s muscles publicly for the new Clinton Administration and demonstrate the prowess of their efforts to control guns. Gun control, that is the control of guns used by law abiding citizens, has always been a wonderful vote getting slogan for Washington politicians and their puppets in the media, Hollywood, and various State governments.

These particular Christians were selected for the demonstration for they were out of the mainstream and living their lives in relative isolation. To prepare public support for the assault, the group was portrayed on radio and television as dangerous and deviant...claims that were reversed after their deaths and later proven entirely untrue.

When the ATF agents lost control of their field organization during the authorized armored gas assault, innocent people- men, women, children, and infants died. They died in real time for all to see on TV. Washington panicked . Then, the equally incompetent FBI then took over and frantically try to stop the disaster and regain the appearance of sanity. They failed.

The only reliable cover up for the politicians that could never be reversed in court without divine intervention was to call these murders self inflicted. This they did.

The horror of Waco won't go away no matter how hard Washington politicians, their appointed Judges, and their media servants try to bury it. The real pity is that no one marches for the victims of these government atrocities that were all killed in the name of gun control. Instead, bewildered and uninformed people march at the command of the devious for additional restrictions to public freedom with no practical gain in sight.

Election proposals promising enforcement of the many hundreds if not thousands of existing local, State, and federal gun laws now ignored will get no votes for politicians. One only has to read the daily papers to know that gun law enforcement is a dirty job and not a winner to get politicians elected. Conversely, the proposal of new gun laws are big time vote getters since they sound good to the easily manipulated mass who do not understand the fundamental truth that gun laws unenforced are worse for the public than no laws at all.

Waco was not an isolated event. The innocent young woman holding an infant at Ruby Ridge was executed along with her son for the same stated purpose of gun control. The 14 year old was shot in the back. Even the boy’s dog was cut in half by exuberant automatic rifle fire. Yet no one marches for them.

A trained FBI sniper was the young woman’s executioner. His expertise was said to have failed him. Couldn’t a well trained sniper be expected to at least identify his victim as a woman holding a baby verses some man at 200 yards with a high magnification sniper scope? Do trained snipers shoot people they can’t see or identify? It was learned afterward that the dead were not even accused of any crime.

All of this is Federal gun control gone insane. Do any Moms care to march for these innocent victims? The answer is no. They will only march on central command of the well known and clearly identified friends of the Clintons who planned and produced the recent White House spectacle called "the Million Mom March."

Stupid rather than intelligent gun control is all about the loss of freedom and the rise of a self serving central government. It happened in Germany and it is happening here.

The answer is to keep within present laws and buy guns and ammunition while it is legal to do so. Store them carefully. Learn how to use them safely. Resolve never to give them or your existing rights up no matter what Washington decides....That means NEVER! Enough is enough! LET FREEDOM RING!

I only have a couple of comments to add for clarification. First, I have heard that the Branch Davidians were targeted as one of several churches with gun rooms. Prior to Clinton taking office, another church (with a gun room) was hit with a raid. Waco was the second raid. Perhaps someone knows the details of the first raid. As I recall, (it was probably in the Bush Adm.) there was a religious sect that was raided and I believe it was in Arkansas or somewhere in that area of the country. For what ever reason, the powers that be, object to religious sects who 'have gun rooms.' Then Waco turned out to be such a disaster that no further churches were raided - yet.

Yes, Koresh had a gun dealer license. Guns were bought and sold at gun shows to help pay the bills of the group. At the time of the Waco raid, many of the guns and two or three of the Branch Davidians were at a gun show - and not available at the 'compound' to assist in the defense of the Branch Davidians. Of course, the BATF knew this.

An Interview with Gordon Novel, Investigator for Ramsey Clark, Waco Branch Davidian Attorney.

Alex Jones Radio Show, 5.085/6.890 Shortwave, 4/18/00 (Re-aired)

AJ: Where would you like to start? What's the most pertinent thing in this whole sea of corruption that you would like to cover?
GN: Oh, I would think the FLIR tapes are the top of it right now. Though, I understand that the report is about to come out that even if it's in our favor, the science of it and the secrecy behind it...... Let's assume it's real. How would you plead it - by the judge making it secret, the conditions under which the tests were conducted, using a half-million dollars worth of taxpayers money is certainly not to be believed.

AJ: Well, certainly Gordon. And for those that are not intimately involved in this and don't know all the different subterfuges, and all the different activities of this giant soap opera - we already have the real FLIR tape that shows the troops coming out of the vehicles and you can see them, then they disappear because of their red-out suits. We'll talk about those. We see the Christmas tree machine gun fire, at the same rate. We have Dr. Edward Allard, one of the inventors of FLIR, saying that's what it is. A child could look at it and tell that. You're talking about the phony test out at Fort Hood that's been barred from the public, for now 3 or 4 weeks. You have this phony judge, Walter Smith. Give people some background.
GN: Well, they set up a test, where the protocol for the test was to bar everybody but the so-called FLIR experts. Well, our original FLIR expert was Edward Allard and (Michael) Caddell comes in and hires him to do some more work on the thing. As a result, none of us are allowed to inspect or look at, or to observe it being made - all the normal things you would do with evidence -

AJ: Hold on, we know Allard's good. Why he's overlooking the test. He was there wasn't he?
GN: He had a stroke.

AJ: He couldn't make it.....
GN: So it's a sham from beginning to end. That's the problem. Everything about everything in this thing, including what appears to be the independent investigator of the Office of Special Counsel being conducted out of a private law firm up in St. Louis by the former Senator John Danforth, it all appears to be nothing more than a continuing cover-up. And the reason I say this is because, you can't see any activity by his 60 investigators. I mean, nobody can put 60 investigators into the field to investigate a crime of this magnitude and no one observes them investigating. So are they investigating or covering-up? I have to believe from what I have seen so far that it's a big cover-up.

AJ: Well, Danforth has been out to Mr. Carmel twice. I was there once and they talked to witnesses the second time, who were there. There are guards out there on site, so there's no vandalism. And helicopters will fly over. Then they'll land at the nearby airbase. Ten minutes later, up pulls champagne-colored sedans, out gets Danforth and walks around for ten minutes, does an interview with media. "I'm here investigating." Gets back in the car and drives off.
GN: Yep, that's a classic example of how they do things. That's sort of like Caddell, in 1994, I believe that's correct, 1994, July, Caddell sends a company, called Kennedy Engineering, which are fire engineers and fire experts over there. They put on red suits, they walk around for 15-20 minutes, they don't take any soil samples. They make themselves look like Red Adair and it's all a show, it's a sham, and the report is nothing. So he spends money but nothing ever happens. So, one would have to conclude that everything he has been doing so far has been pretty specious.

AJ: Well we know it is all a fraud, that's certainly the case. I mean, you have this judge, Walter Smith, back in '94, in the trial, the jury finds them not guilty but he uses some federal sentencing to put a whole bunch of the Davidians in prison for, what, forty years. And then he is assigned to the civil trial and he's talking about not even allowing a jury -he's going to decide.
GN: Oh yea, he pretends to be God, and he probably is his measure of it. And he has delayed these activities forever. He's given Caddell, he is the only one who is allowed to look at the discovery and Caddell is Clinton's lawyer. So, Caddell is currently accusing me of threatening his life, which is a joke. His life isn't even worth threatening. The activities he is doing are so visibly obstructive that it's ridiculous.

AJ: Stay right there. Back in three minutes. We'll talk about Michael Caddell - Bill Clinton's lawyer, his man in Houston.
BREAK
AJ: We're talking to Gordon Novel. Gordon, before we go any further, what is it like for you, being so inside the mechanism, exposing Reno and Clinton, to see her now the head of emergency management, as well as the Justice Dept and running domestic operations from the military here in America?
GN: Well, it's hard to respond to that because nothing about whatever is going on right now seems to make any sense. I mean it's kind of hard to --- I strongly suspect, I've long suspected Clinton would probably try anything to remain in power because as soon as he is out, somebody is going to indict him.

(SNIP)

AJ:... Now back to Caddell, on the Caddell situation.... I've got the documents, Gordon, you sent me an incredible brief and I really do appreciate it. By the way, I did get your fax with the other addendum.
GN: About the attacks he is waging on me now.....

AJ: Yes, incredible, where he is saying that you are threatening his life... which he has been using for a while, what to get you out of evidence rooms?
GN: Yea, yea, yea. I mean that's his whole objective is to keep me away from the evidence so that he can cover it up.

AJ: Again, we are talking to Gordon Novel, chief Davidian investigator, also for the former attorney general Ramsey Clark, who has uncovered 90% of what has come out in the media, just as of late..... Ah, Gordon, I've got the documents right here. Ah, tell the people about Caddell and Bill Clinton.
GN: Well, about 1990, Caddell gave Clinton, remember this, he gave Clinton when he was running for Governor, for his fourth term in Arkansas, a quarter of a million dollars and he is sitting over here, this is before Clinton has declared himself a candidate for president, and he gives him a quarter of a million dollars to run for governor of the state that he doesn't even live in. They're not many people who will do that unless they are part of the inner team that are planning the capturing of the White House.

AJ: So, he wanted to be a friend of Bill, knowing that he was probably going to be in the White House. He had to be an inner circle person to know that.
GN: Yea, and he bet essentially a quarter of a million dollars that whoever the Republican candidate was, he'd win. And, at that time, the candidate was George Bush. So, he's obviously demonstrated where he's coming from and he's been continuing to contribute. He pleaded from the inception of the case that the Davidians committed suicide and up until '97, when we really were pouring in the evidence, and the Feds were trying to put me in jail for doing it, which is always the program, he still pleaded suicide. It wasn't until we overwhelmed them. The FLIR tape probably was the single most conclusive piece of evidence in the case and at that point, he was forced by his clients to adopt the evidence because he couldn't keep his clients if he continued to plead suicide when the evidence was circulating in all directions. McNulty's film, Waco, The Rules of Engagement, had some out, so he had to do that.

AJ: Now Gordon, long before that film came out, you were talking about how you sat down with the CIA, the former director and others, and they showed you this tape, - where they had this tape that turned the muzzle flashes into red ....
GN: Well, they colorized the whole thing. I don't know how they did it, but they had - I haven't seen that done except by Carlos Gigliotti, and he did it in red, when I saw it. The difference, when Colby did it, I don't know from who or where he got it. But he colorized the gunshots in one color, I believe they were in red. And he had the fire green and the explosions blue.

AJ: All right, we've got to break - - a long segment coming up. So, Gordon, you can get a lot of information out. Think about how amazing it is, Folks, when you see Michael Caddell, the supposed Branch Davidian lawyer on TV bad-mouthing them. He's not even their lawyer, people. Think about how controlled the system is. I'm Alex Jones. We'll be right back with Gordon Novel, chief investigator for the real Davidian attorneys.

BREAK

AJ: I think the James Bond music was fitting to come into this segment, with Gordon Novel, chief investigator. I mean he has done work for Nixon, trying to expose how they were editing all those tapes and counter-intelligence before that. He's done work on the Kennedy assassination going back with Ramsey Clark and others. He's been attacked from all sides. You know what they say when you are over the target, you had better take flack or you know you are not doing your job.
Gordon, thank you again for joining us. Where do you start on a show like this? We've already got people calling in and wanting to talk to you. I can't wait to see you out there Tuesday night and again on Wednesday morning out there for the big rememberance at Mr. Carmel.
GN: Well, I'm looking forward to it Alex. The man who walks on water is certainly going to hear from me and that's you. Anybody who can build a church at Mr. Carmel has got my attention...

AJ: Well, Gordon, I remember about four years ago talking to you and Ramsey out there. Ramsey said this is the man to talk to Alex and I starting talking to you. And you said, you're local and you're on the radio, and you gave a powerful speech young man, I think you need to rebuild this Church. It took four years for me to realize that we could actually get it done. Of course the audience is about 50, 100 times bigger now, and we got it done, except for a few little odds and ends, it's a big Church.....
GN: It's a miracle. But Alex, like I say you are a blessed man, because it's a miracle that anybody could do it. I tried to do it and I like to think that I am pretty sharp. I couldn't do it until I found you. And then I didn't do it, you did. So, I was just the messenger with the dream which was to get something up out there that they couldn't burn down......

SNIP

AJ: Gordon, how do we stop Michael Caddell and Judge Walter Smith and former Senator Danforth, the so-called independent investigator appointed by Reno to investigate Reno, how do we stop them? How do we get a real trial? I know right now they are trying to throw Ramsey Clark and Brannon out - the real attorneys.
GN: Well, Brannon is going to ride in, they are really trying to get him out but they are most definitely trying to get Ramsey out of the case because that allows Caddell to plead away his case.

AJ: Clive Doyle told me weeks ago and I've talked to other Davidians who have gotten the letters, that Caddell is sending out letters asking all the real Davidians to drop their case.
GN: Yea, these are the same clients that when they wanted to jump out in 1995 and 1996 because of the suicide pleadings and they would call us up and we would talk to them, he would immediately file letters on us with the Bar Association accusing us of verity(?). But with Caddell, you can believe anything. He really is Clinton's man in the case.

AJ: He didn't just give 250 grand to Clinton back in '94 for governor. What's the grand total from these actual election commission documents you sent me?
GN: I haven't totaled it all up but it's probably three quarters of a million dollars.

AJ: That's what it looks like to me. I think that is quite a story isn't it Gordon?
GN: What's amazing is that his clients have yet to wake up about it. And when they do, there's is going to be hell to pay because if the clients would bolt and if they all came forward and said he was - ah - and tell the truth, they don't have to do anything, those documents that I sent you are federal election documents.

AJ: It's insanity. Folks, this is what we talk about - the false reality. Gordon, explain this false reality to people and how we can defeat it.
GN: The false reality is the whole system - it's rather corrupt. Every action that has gone down in the Davidian case has been sustained by the circuit in New Orleans, but now we are going to have, I believe, April 24th, somewhere in there, there is going to be a hearing before the U.S. Supreme Court on trying to get these guys sentences reduced. At that point, because of all the discovery that has come about, principally because of people like you and Lee Hancock and Mike McNulty, myself and others, all of that evidence is out. They concealed it from the trial and these guys haven't done anything about it. I mean the attorneys that represented them have yet to do anything with it - and a tremendous amount of hidden material which is normally the kind of stuff under the Brady and Jenks rulings for discovery was concealed. We now know all the stuff but these guys are still in jail. The helicopters fired first. You can prove that. I'm going to be challenging the judge, Danforth and Caddell and Burton to recreate the vault explosion, the flyover,
which we can now prove that the helicopters fired first killing a woman breast-feeding her baby, shot her through the top of the head. Shot two other guys in the top of the head and the bullets were rifle bullets. And there's no one in front of the building with rifles. So, there's no way on earth that bullets can enter the top of your head and come out the bottom of your butt, unless somebody has shot you from the air.
You can count the gunshots from the first helicopter coming over which is before the shooting starts at the front of the building, approximately 30 or 40 seconds. They were doing Apocalypse Now, like the movie, where the helicopters storm the place and everybody gets down and then the troops invade.

AJ: Now people watch these made-for-TV movies, and all they see is the BATF running up lovingly in their black uniforms and petting the dogs. They don't show them shooting them which they admit they did and opening fire. It seems to me from all the evidence you brought forward and others, and the actual film evidence and the people you have interviewed, that as they were getting out of the cattle trailers and Koresh is opening the door unarmed. To create the crisis, the helicopters open fire and the BATF heard the shots, they were being used and just opened fire.
GN: That's correct and then that first volley of fire that came from the helicopters, they killed three people. And these are people who were just walking around inside the building and didn't even know what was going on.

AJ: That was all proven by the water tanks and holes coming through, the lawyers that went inside - that's why they had to burn it down.
GN: The judge won't let that in yet.... The judge has effectively ruled that the Davidians fired first, even though the missing door would prove it. And that the door is missing is no accident. Everybody knows it is no accident. The lawyers saw it. All the bullet holes are ingoing, are incoming from the Feds. The Feds went and made a movie so you could see the bullets coming outside. The writer has since said he wishes he had never touched the NBC movie of the week, called Ambush at Waco.

AJ: Yea, he was out at Waco two years ago, say his name again?
GN: Philip Pentingroth (sp?)

AJ: Yea, Philip Pentingroth. Yes, ladies and gentleman, I saw his speech and like a fool, I didn't videotape it. Say Gordon, do you know of any videotapes of him apologizing?
GN: I can't even find him. I've been trying to find him. We wanted to talk about doing a feature film and having him write it because he had such a conscience scene and that he had such a knowledge of it. But we haven't been able to find him. That's been the problem. I don't know where he is.

AJ: Let's go back to before Waco, two weeks before - the call you got and now, how they could fake this phony test out at Fort Hood - for which they still have not released the details.
GN: If there's no machine gun fire on the tape, which I am reliably told by Jim Brannon is the situation, then that means that the bullets were sub-loaded down to the speed of a .22 bullet or the powder level of a .22 bullet. They probably put aluminum or aluminum-lithium barrels on the weapons....

AJ: So, just enough to push the bullet out of the barrel but not enough to give it any flash or penetration.
GN: Yea, the bullet would go out and sound like, to somebody back 50 or 75 yards watching the thing, they wouldn't hear anything except an automatic weapon. So the signature instead of being the signature of a high-powered rifle like an M16. Those automatic weapons would not show up. Well that's the most fallacious - because they would obviously show up. If a single shot will show up, why wouldn't automatic weapons fire show up? Well, that's because they play tricks with this stuff, they play tricks with everything - the ground, the camera setting, everything so far.....

AJ: Once the real lawyers, like Brannon and Clark, come forward, those that have seen the tape, they have turned the light levels up so high it's just a big white wash.
GN: Right, yea that's a good description of it, a whitewash, that's a perfect description.

AJ: Well, that's what we call it in TV land. On all the units, digital or analog, they have a PBC(?) unit. I know the FLIR units have that, too, and you can just crank the light levels up. (Snip) Right before the trial in June, suddenly they release the results of the test, and say, Lord knows what. Do you have any indication what they are going to say?
GN: No, I don't. I know that the judge indicated that the report is in. The report is coming from a company called Vector Data Systems, which is wholly owned by an American company called Anteon, and Anteon's primary contractor is the Dept. of Justice. So the judge bought into..... either somebody failed to tell him what's going on or he is part of the conspiracy to do the cover-up because the OSC brings in, in effect, a DOJ contractor and claims that this is a neutral expert. Well, that's a joke. This doesn't even dignify anything other than calling it horse feathers or bull feathers. It's totally fraudulant. (snip)

AJ: It's totally and complete subterfuge and if the mainstream media ever did it's job and wasn't complicit in this cover-up, then we would have the truth. That's where independent media, like this broadcast you are hearing right now on commercial AM and FM stations, shortwave, micro-FM, the internet, and right off the satellite is so important. Gordon, back to 1993, two weeks before, tell people about the phone call you got.
GN: A buddy of mine, who I had know for a very long time, Danny Grahm, a retired general. He was chief aide to General Westmoreland in Vietnam. He was the deputy director of the Central Intelligence Agency and he then became the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. And right before Reagan was elected, he wrote a book called High Frontiers, which became known as Star Wars, which is an ongoing program to put up a missile shield around the country. He called me up, and by the way, Danny is deceased, but his Adjutant General Richardson is not, so this is not a story that somebody might call a shaggy dog tale. He called me up and said some friends of mine, and at that time I suspected the Defense Intelligence Agency, and it may have been. But we now know the Defense Investigative Services were investigating the Ft. Hood thing before the raid (at Waco) and wanted to know why the Delta Force people were training ATF storm troopers - or their combined southern swat teams to go in there and, essentially, storm a church on a Sunday morning. He said we want to confirm that and that there is going to be a raid on February 28, 1993.
So, I called up Michael Hall who was the retired special agent in charge of ATF here in New Orleans, who retired in 1985. He called me back, I told him the whole story and said that Danny needs to know it. He was on the same board of directors that Danny was, which was Force One, my security company. He calls me back. He was a very patriotic guy, one of the few honest federal policemen that I have known - I can count them on one hand. That's the horror of what our problem is today: they are criminals that run our government. He called me back and said my son-in-law, Greg Fields is going to be in the second helicopter. They are going to use three military helicopters to divert the Davidians. And I said, it sounds like if you are going to use military helicopters, it sounds like they are planning to shoot them. He said, "Oh no, they probably won't do that." I said, Michael, I think you are being naive. I said this guy Clinton will do anything. He knew that, I might add. Clinton was in office at that time, he had been in office only about a month. He verified that they were training these guys to storm this church, as part of a dynamic entry. A better way to put it is full frontal military assult. So, I gave it back to Danny and he said, "I wish you would keep a close eye on it." And I did that.
So, when they actually did the raid - I mean I was flabbergasted and I knew about it. At that point I became extremely interested in it. We started watching it. I'm ashamed that I didn't come over there and get Ramsey Clark to go in there earlier. I think that may have changed the program or changed it a bit. On the other hand, they might have burned Ramsey up in there. I mean Ramsey is the kind of guy who would have gone in there and stayed in there until they worked out some type of legal arrangement as to what was going to happen. Ramsey might have been able to change history. I certainly felt bad about it. On April 20th, I was there and I can remember walking into the hotel over there and the Davidians were sitting around the hotel. And they said, well the good guys finally showed up. I said, the only problem is we are about 82 bodies too late.

Freeper e_castaillo "…Start with the ATF and end with the FBI and you get a bunch of callous, insensitive "government" slobs who report to no one….."

Freeper Magician 5/18/00 "….. I support the theory of Mr. K. that it revolved around the murder of the four former Clinton bodyguards. The odds against those four being the only ones killed among the one hundred agents in the initial raid, and in two separate locations, are astronomical. If the above is correct, the Davidians had to be killed to prevent them from testifying that they were not the ones who shot the bodyguards. …."

"…..It was Conway Le Beau at the front door, firing with a silenced H&K MP5SD submachinegun at David Koresh, who initiated the killing, though some shots from SD5s were fired to kill Davidian dogs, and an agent on a ladder who accidentally discharged his pistol into his own foot was probably the first shot from an unsuppressed [silencer-equipped] weapon. After that, the wholesale fieing ensued, including the call for the helicopters to come in and *prep* [prepare] the landing zones for the teams going into the building from the upper floors by hosing them with automatic weapons fire to eliminate any return fire or immediate reaction to the assault from above, and in this case, to kill the Davidian mother nursing her baby inside.

But it was LeBeau whose first shots, fired at Koresh, peppered the absent front door and were proof certain that the ATF raiders had no intention whatsoever of letting David Koresh have his day in court. Perhaps not all the ATF raiders knew all the plans of that day; the three Little Rock former Clinton bodyguards certainly did not know what had been planned for them, but Le Beau knew what was planned for Koresh, and he was the one who pulled the trigger, wounding Koresh.

Interestingly, not all the ATF agents were carrying submachineguns, M16s or shotguns. Those seen in the photos without such equipment are likely either flunkies who were not in on the grander scheme of things for that day and thought it was just a plain old arrest/warrent service on a larger scale, with a little good PR thrown in. A few, carrying military-issue *cyclone* armour-piercing ammunition in their handguns or SMGs, knew their targets would be close and could be taken from behind: the other agents who were to be killed.

There's a very high probability that Bill Buford was also supposed to be killed, as he was the Little Rock supervisory agent to whom the others would have reported anything irregular during the time they'd been ordered detatched to work with the Secret Service covering Bill Clinton in Little Rock during the primary campaign. It's also very likely that at least one round that hit and nearly killed Buford was fired by an ATF sniper.

The plan to have two teams enter from the rooftop was a good one, as entering a building from the top and clearing your way down is the preferred way to go. Given the luxury of killing everything in sight, such an entry and downward movement could have been accomplished quickly, cleanly, quietly and without friendly casualties; given the possibility of having to treat and cover a wounded teammate or deal with a surrendering noncombatant Davidian, the *roof teams* simply didn't have enough personnel for those tasks [8] and had to simply shoot anyone who might have surrendered. This is obvious to anyone in on putting the plan together, particularly its leader, Buford.

Means, motive and opportunity are the investigator's triad for investigation of premeditated murder.

If you read the *seventh seal* descriptions of Revelations, they do indeed sound like a description of the aftereffects of a nuclear weapon- or worse, a biological one.

And if Koresh had obtained a sample of Anthrax or HPAI from the British biowar establishment at Porton Down, then smuggled it across the Mexican Border so porous that narcotics by the ton rumbles through in truckload quantities, that could cause a few pieces of your theory to fall better into place.

And the theft of arms at Ft Hood, believed to be going to Cuban exiles in the US planning another invasion of Cuba scheduled for late November 1963 was also a quietly-held aspect of the Kennedy assassination investigation, a subject which Koresh had shown interest in previously, to include a personal visit to Dallas to the Texas Schoolbook Depository, then and now a museum of that historical event.

Subject: The Waco operation was like an onion. Each of the agencies had differing reasons for their participation and tactics at Waco. Very Few of them knew the real reason. What I call the "Roots of Waco"

In covert intelligence operations, one has to peel away multiple layers of increasingly plausible reasons to get at what you believe is the truth. (View this process as trying to peel the first onion you ever saw.) The outside layer, the publicly announced reason, is obviously unpalatable. You discard it.

The next layer looks pretty good except for being thin and having a few flaws. Do you ignore the flaws or go deeper? You peel that away and discard it too. You can go on and on looking for the 'pure essence' of the onion and you will end up with a tiny sliver from the center that is obviously not significant enough to be called an onion, and you will have discarded the onion.

I think there was a central reason for Waco that was probably known to only a tiny handful of individuals. I suspect it had to do with Black Budgets, Promis software, and one or more of the Intelligence agencies (DIA, CIA, NSA). Call the unknown agency the XXA

Breaking most, if not all, rules of logic, I would like to present a speculative scenario for discussion. I'm not certain of all the facts and don't have good sources (except for my memory of what I have read.) Maybe some others can make some of the connections more solid. There is a possible connection between Ruby Ridge and Waco. I recall reading a history of the promis software situation in which it was claimed that one of the XXA contractors who "developed/modified the promis capabilities got scared and went underground taking a copy with him. It was further claimed that that persons father was a neighbor and presumably a friend of Randy Weaver and that RW had been pressured to spy on said neighbor. It was also claimed that the person was at the BD compound at Waco at some time if not there during the Feb raid. If the BD's had the capability and were tinkering with XXA's Black Budget accounts or even accessing their records, This would justify, in the minds of XXA bosses, the destruction of all computing equipment, and the elimination of anyone who might know where any copies of the software might be hidden. (I think this might be the "root of Waco".) How do you do this where you have a "family" of ~100 "marginally stable" people and a site on 70+ acres with buildings having 1000s of places a zip disk could be hidden? You set an operation in place to burn the place to the ground and you kill everybody. And, you do it in a way that will instill terror and fear in anyone else that might be holding an "in case something happens to me" zip disk.

You can't have your own agency run the operation, for several obvious reasons, so you con a gullible and/or vulnerable sucker agency into doing it for you in a way that it won't be connected to you.... Enter the BATF.

BATF has all the previously mentioned problems of budget, etc. They need a success badly. They are fed info that the BD's are working on a WMD and see a chance to get credit, at the same time, for saving millions of lives. It's too good an opportunity for them to question, let alone hand off to the FBI too handle. With the "Showtime tapes" in the can, they will Never, Ever, Again have to worry about budgets or Congressional criticism. Our spymaster in the XXA has found the ideal sucker.

He figures the BATF cowboys will provoke a pitched battle and he has the timing manipulated and the operation "leaked" to insure that the BD's are ready. But they don't attack the BATF at first sight as was hoped. Also, Clinton, knowing that the raid is going to come off, sets up the disposal of some ex-bodyguards /witnesses, and he and/or the spymaster uses one of them to provoke the gunfight by spraying Koresch with his H&K. (Insurance) Except for the "second story men", who were taking a ridiculous risk hauling ladders up to the building, and maybe 1 or 2 others nobody there knew the computers were a target that had to be destroyed. Shooting the "second story men" screwed up that part of the operation. That is the problem with excessive compartmentalization. The people at the scene, don't know what the real priorities are. Whoever killed the bodyguards thought THAT was the "real, hidden agenda" and that capture of the computers and computer literate BD's was an adequate substitute for destruction and death. The 'Gang that couldn't shoot straight' uses up all their ammo without killing Koresch and without getting into the compound. They have to ask for a truce to retreat.........Big humiliation.

Now they are stuck. There is an, almost complete, WMD inside (they believe) and it looks like it is going to be a long siege. They can't admit to knowing about the WMD or they would have had no business and maybe no authority to deal with such a situation. They wanted to "discover" the WMD while raiding the compound for "firearms violations."

From the POV of the BATF, they had no choice but to give the WMD info to the DoJ (FBI) and maybe let the SecDef in on it. At this point the BATF is effectively taken out of the loop. The FBI doesn't fully buy into the WMD story, not enough real evidence. They (FBI) are not quite as gullible as the BATF. The spymaster needs time so the former inside man gets word out that the weapon is less complete than originally thought. Spymaster uses the siege time to plant enough of a body of evidence to convince the FBI of the possibility of the WMD. Too many questions would be asked if the military took charge publicly as they should in a WMD situation. So, the FBI is put in the position of "fronting" and providing "extras" for what is essentially a military intelligence final solution of the situation. i.e.. burn the place to the ground and kill everybody. The FBI essentially stands by and watches.

Sooner or later, the FBI figures out that they have been duped by the phony WMD story but can't admit to being made fools of or to being accomplices to a mass murder. The BATF just wants to not be remembered as starting the situation so they don't even care if there was a WMD anymore. So the FBI and the BATF are left with only the ridiculously weak and very thin skin of the onion to cover their butts.

This whole scenario could use a lot of fleshing out and I admit it contains a lot of speculation and extrapolation.

Yellow Rose of Texas: "….after hours of searching I finally found the names of the 2 men at WACO who were supposedly the computer experts.

Jeff Little
Barry Kumnick

Also another little note: Randy Weavers Wife, Vanessa's father worked for Jackson Stevens for 23 years. I wrote this down as it was announced on CNBC one night but I did not note the date or the program. I realize undocumented information is worthless but.........interesting anyway

Alamo-Girl reply: "….I don’t find Kumnick on the official Waco sites, but I found this: http://esotericworldnews.com/octopus.htm Our website is http://freeamerica.com and includes INSLAW, WACKENHUT, OCTOBER SURPRISE with Russbacher and also inside reports from Iran intelligence, EARL BRIAN in October Surprise, Inslaw and Mind Control series. We were the only publication involved with Barry Kumnick, his father was the next door neighbor of Randy Weaver. Kumnick enhanced the INSLAW software with artificial intelligence - a quantum leap - and disappeared for a year. His father had him call us when he resurfaced

A Vanessa Weaver is mentioned in the House Committee on Government Reform http://www.davidbonior.house.gov/reform/oversight/finance/depositions/bldep.htm along with Huang and other Chinagate figures. Probably Jackson-Stephens would be mentioned in there also. But I’m fairly certain it is not the same person. "…Again, I don't know, no. She was involved in personnel. Whether it was, you know, making recommendations for Asian­American personnel. Vanessa Weaver is also Vernon Weaver's daughter. So, to the extent they may have had a personal relationship because Vernon worked for Stevens and was connected with the Riadys through Stevens, they may have had a personal relationship. But, again, I don't know...." ….."

Yellow Rose of Texas: http://www.shadeslanding.com/firearms/waco.affidavit.html I, Davy Aguilera, being duly sworn, depose and state that: …. I am a Special Agent with the US Treasury Department, BATF, Austin, Texas, and I have been so employed for approximately 5 years. This affidavit is based on my own investigation as well as information furnished to me by other law enforcement officers and concerned citizens. …… While at the Mt. Carmel Center, he saw a metal lathe and a metal milling machine which were normally operated by Donald Bunds and Jeff Little. Donald Bunds, a mechanical engineer, has the capability to fabricate firearm parts according to Block. On one occasion, at the Mt. Carmel Center, he observed Bunds designing what Bunds described as a "grease gun/sten gun" on an Auto Cad computer located at the residence building at the compound. The computer has the capability of displaying a three dimensional rendering of objects on a computer monitor screen. The object appeared to be a cylindrical tube with a slot cut into the side of it for a bolt cocking lever. Bunds told him that Howell wanted Bunds to design a "grease gun" which they could manufacture. Mr. Block told me that on another occasion at the Mt. Carmel Center, he saw Donald Bunds designing a template which Bunds explained was to fit around the "grease gun" tubes indicating where the bolt lever slots were to be milled out. This was another step in manufacturing "grease guns" which had been requested by Howell. I know that a "grease gun" is a machine gun following after the design of a WWII era military weapon. …."

http://kreative.net/carolmoore/waco-treasury-report1.html Report of THE DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY on the BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, AND FIREARMS Investigation of Vernon Wayne Howell also known as David Koresh September 1993 ….The David Block Interview …..In late January 1993, Aguilera interviewed David Block, who had been a Branch Davidian from 1981 through June 1992. Block had lived at the Compound for several months before he "escaped." He reported having often seen two Branch Davidians, Donald Bunds, a mechanical engineer, and Jeff Little using a metal milling machine and metal lathe to produce weapons. On several occasions, Bunds also had used an AutoCAD (i.e., computer-aided design) software package--which allows mechanical engineers to design objects by providing a three-dimensional picture and precise measurements of the object being designed--to design a "grease gun." Grease gun is the nickname for the M3 and M3Al .45-caliber military submachineguns used by American forces during World War II. The parts of this grease gun included a cylindrical tube with a bolt-cocking groove carved into the side and a template to fit around the tube to enable it to be used on the milling machine. Bunds had explained that Koresh wanted him to design a weapon that could be manufactured at the Compound. ……"

http://etherzone.com/whit090799.html Mack White University of Texas "….In the year after the famous fire at Waco, I met the surviving Branch Davidians. It was through a friend of mine, Richard Mosley, who produced the documentary Day 51: The True Story of Waco…… Day 51 interviewed Davidian Wally Kennett, who stated the ATF was in actuality not looking for an illegal arsenal when they raided Mt. Carmel on February 28, 1993, but rather for information stored on a computer. This information, he alleged, had been compiled by two Davidians--Jeff Little and Wayne Martin--both of whom were killed in the final assault on April 19. Furthermore, Kennett states that it was this computer, not guns or anything else, that was kept in the room which the ATF attempted to enter the morning of the raid....... If this is so, then it explains why the ATF went ahead with the raid on February 28, when they knew the bulk of the arsenal had been taken to Austin for a gun show that morning.

……..Jeff Little was known by the Davidians to have been a "computer expert" who had previously worked for the Yamaha Corporation, and had been involved in a shady project to modify a law enforcement software to contain a "trap door." At the time Day 51 was produced, this tidbit of information meant nothing. However, in the years that have followed, new information has emerged which gives it a great deal of meaning……..

The Octopus: Secret Government and the Death of Danny Casolaro, by Kenn Thomas and Jim Keith, is one of several books to emerge recently which detail how the Reagan Justice Department stole PROMIS, a law enforcement software, from the firm INSLAW, and modified it to contain a "trap door." PROMIS was then sold by the government to various entities, such as foreign intelligence agencies…….It has also been alleged by internet writers such as J. Orlin Grabbe that Vince Foster, the late White House Special Counsel, was involved in this scheme. ……

…. According to one theory, [Foster] he had fallen victim to a group of CIA renegades known as the Fifth Column which were dedicated to eradicting corruption in the government. Supposedly, Fifth Column operatives have been travelling around the country in a truck loaded with a Cray computer, which they use to empty the Swiss bank accounts of corrupt government officials. The software program used for this purpose is the modified version of PROMIS. ….. So it was dramatic justice indeed that Foster, who had supervised the PROMIS project, fell victim to his own project. The story goes, he checked the balance of his Swiss account one day and found it empty. That was when he knew he was in trouble.

…… Vince Foster's widow, however, has another explanation for his alleged suicide. In an Associated Press story, she stated his death had something to do with the Waco incident, which had occurred only a few months before. According to her, he felt responsible for what happened in Waco, and that is why he killed himself……...

…….Many have alleged that Mt. Carmel Center was an intelligence front of some kind. For instance, the minister of a rival Davidian church in Waco told me that, under Koresh, it had been a biowarfare factory. This view was shared by lawyer and "Patriot" Linda Thompson, who in a Penthouse interview, alleged it was a CIA facility, and that the ATF raid was orchestrated by the FBI, acting in alliance with Israel's Mossad, to shut the factory. ………… At first I was inclined to dismiss this idea. However, since Waco, we have seen evidence that a Japanese "cult" was involved in the manufacture and terrorist use of deadly sarin gas. So this cannot be ruled out as the sort of activity for which a church might be used as a front…….And yet, there is no evidence biological warfare agents were being manufactured at Waco….

…. Israel figured prominently in Koresh's life, too. It was while on a trip to Israel in the 1980s that he received a "vision" which started him on his new career as spiritual leader. The book Why Waco? reports that Koresh continued to receive visions after returning to the U.S., and that the insights he used for his sermons always originated as pictures being beamed into his head……… Perhaps …. Koresh's "visions" originated from God, perhaps from extraterrestrials, perhaps from their own minds, or perhaps they were delivered by microwave. More than one person has suggested Dick might have been a mind control victim, and the allegation has also been raised that Waco might have been a Jonestown-style mind control facility……….. There is no evidence speed, or sarin, or anything of the kind,was manufactured during his tenure at Waco. What does seem to have gone on, though, is computer espionage--if what the Davidians say about their deceased brethren Jeff Little and Wayne Martin can be believed.......

……..The presence of a speed lab at Waco has led some to speculate on a connection to cocaine smuggling at Mena, Arkanas. According to books such as Compromised and articles in The Wall Street Journal and London Daily Telegraph this activity was sponsored by the Iran/Contra gang (Bush, Weinberger, Oliver North). Weapons were shipped to Nicaragua out of the Mena airport, in exchange for cocaine which was brought back to Mena, then distributed throughout the nation. As governor of Arkansas at that time, Bill Clinton is alleged to have received a hefty amount of cash for looking the other way……..If so, what makes it all the more perplexing is that these three dead agents had all been personal bodyguards of Bill Clinton's during the presidential campaign. Furthermore, shortly afer the fire, a story circulated in Waco that, during a campaign stop there the summer before, these three had accompanied Clinton to a barber shop where he received a haircut from a barber who was a Branch Davidian. The five are said to have had a long, private conversation………..Could the information on Jeff Little's computer have been the subject of that reputed conversation?…."

Rboatman "…. The Kumnick name rings a bell. It sounds like a team of Little and Kumnick, both with histories of inserting "back doors" into software, would be the ideal team to be hacking into XXA databases and financial accounts. Fosters' numerous secret trips to Zurich, which even his wife only learned about after his death, could have had something to do with reestablishing corrupted and or replenishing bank accounts. It may be that that is how he came to the conclusion that "the AG was lied to" (from his infamous 'suicide' note, which I think may have been a personal memo to a "very good friend." ). His making the connection between Waco and the "empty" bank accounts revealed the WMD story as false removing all rational justification in his mind for the killings at Waco, and his attempt to communicate what he interpreted, perhaps wrongly, as an FBI originated scam to the wrong person sealed his fate and made his suicide necessary. I wonder if the person receiving the note angrily tore it into its 20+ pieces before realizing its potential as a suicide note. I think Foster committed suicide.....by trusting the wrong person(s) with what he had found out. …..

….BTW, if you are a young, somewhat arrogant, hacker, on the run from some really powerful and mean dudes do you try to get them to not mess with you by "zeroing out" a few of their big secret bank accounts as an object lesson. Sure, it's foolishly arrogant to really get these mean dudes that ticked off, but of the 1/2 dozen or so really sharp programmers I know, all are foolishly arrogant and self impressed by their own brilliance. Might you not even demonstrate your power by Zeroing out a secret account of a really big and important person and his wife. You don't have to steal the money, you just have to make the record of the account equal zero. ….

….The Octopus: etc. reference jogged my memory. I think I saw an extensive article on the "Sightings" page. At the time, I didn't take it too seriously, though. I haven't relocated it again yet. …..

….Isn't it strange that there are so many "coincidences" that connect an obscure family in Idaho with a group of religious zealots in Texas. Both of which receive the intense attention of the BATF and then of the FBI. Statistically, whatever connects these two groups almost certainly has to be the root cause of the attention. After all, there are 250,000,000+ people in this country, with probably 10's of thousands of families like the Weavers and hundreds or more churches and cults as unusual as the BD's. The chances of a connection being just a random coincidence is probably more than 100000:1. ……."

A few of my thoughts, speculations, and responses about the process of understanding Waco:

"There is much to consider and wonder about; and how does one filter the particles of truth from the sediments diffusing, clouding the issues? Too many influences, too many half truths too many dead people who knew their part of the story, too many criss-cross involvements and "maybe" paranoid conspiracy theories."

In trying to make sense of Waco, I invented (no credit to AlGore here) my "onion theory". Basically, it means that there are 1/4 plausible reasons below the implausible public lies, and 1/2 plausibles below the 1/4 plausibles, with 3/4 plausibles hidden below the 1/2 plausibles, and a tiny seemingly insignificant full truth buried in the middle. (Getting to the TRUTH is akin to peeling an onion.)

The 'full truth' or 'root cause' was probably known to only a slim handfull of individuals originally (possibly only 1-3 people), and by most standards of morality would NEVER have justified the level of death and destruction wraught upon the BD's and their little ones. Or the after-action house cleaning and coverup deaths. The person(s) that engineered waco have a completely different moral sense than most of the rest of the human race.

One needs to realize too that plausibility is not necessarily equal to truth in this discipline. It is only equal to the likelihood that one will stop peeling and accept that layer as the truth.

Probably few, if any, of the actual, on scene, participants knew of the root cause, but some were probably fed a Nation Security type reason such as the WMD (which I would catagorize as a 3/4 plausible reason.) The implausibility of that reason is the failure of the alphabet agencies and the Clinton administration to take credit for 'saving the country if not the world' from mass destruction. Even if said WMD were a stolen secret US or Allied built device, it would have been completely destroyed in the fire and consequently not traceable to its source. It could have been blamed on any convenient terrorist organization and appropriate evidence produced to support a 'dog wagging' response. (Remember the aspirin factory here). I just can't see Billyboy and the alpha-agencies passing up an opportunity like that.

Then there are the "contributing reasons". These are real reasons but, in and of themselves, insufficient to justify the final outcome. Some apply to only parts of the operation and aftermath, and most are only valid for one or two groups or subgroups of participants. Some examples are ZBO, Showtime tapes, Congressional Budgets, witness elimination (bdyguards), intimidation of survivors, foreign policy negotiations, stupidity, incredible meanness, possible firearms violations, etc.

"One of the top hackers leaving with program copies and having inserted a trap door to it, would likely leave a trail or conversation with others telling of his coup. Is it possible to pull off such a feat and tell no one; or leave hidden discs or evidence of his sensational ability and the story of it? "....."IMHO if software were the threat to national security, burning the compound wouldn’t make the problem go away. And even a trusted insider-government plant couldn't be sure they got all the copies... "........."How did it serve to kill the children and infants? Some came out during the days before the seige. Is there no information from them? Since they are alive and witness to much that happened, it seems logical their information is the source for (answers to) many of our questions." (Countryline)

You couldn't be sure, but by killing everyone there you send a message to anyone holding an 'in case anything should ever happen to me' disk or even knowlege of the existance of a program that you are Utterly Ruthless and capable of eliminating not only them but their families. Very effective. The strange deaths of investigators and others involved, serve as effective deterrents also.

"How can those involved (on the gov't side, I presume) be kept from telling their story?"

Most probably still believe the National Security reason. Some have probably seen thru that, Vincent F for example, and have been kept silent one way or another. They were vulnerable because the truth would be that they participated in ordering a capital crime. (Or they have other vulnerabilities.) Some might be leaking "what they think they know" and that may be why investigators like Novel are so certain they have have the core truth. The information comes from participants who are telling the truth, as they know it.

What is the truth? What is the real root cause? I don't know!

I believe that the real root cause is hidden behind layers of partial truths and varyingly plausible untruths and infused with contributing reasons. I also believe that that root cause will be so unsatisfying to anyone with normal moral standards that it will likely be disregarded as not significant enough to be the cause of all the death and destruction. Most people are too moral to believe that waco could have happened for less than some momentous reason. We probably can't understand it unless we can put ourselves inside the mind of someone who would be capable of engineering something like waco.

Maybe I'm too tired to think straight.

Maybe I'm paranoid.

Maybe I'm not paranoid enough.... BTW, I am not suicidal, I'm in good health, and I drive carefully.

Maybe I just read too many Tom Clancy novels.

Maybe I'm.... rboatman

Freepre Fuselighter "…Based on what I've read on this site (including your contributions) here's my theory: Assumption as true: The raid was directed and conducted with the full knowledge and instruction of the White House, i.e., Bill and/or Hillary.

Theory: The Davidians (who had direct contact with the government shortly before the raid, including a previous meeting between Koresh and Clinton at a Waco barbershop)had obtained computer data (possibly through purchase or acquisition of used government computers) revealing the government's acquisition and use of PROMIS software (and possibly related "back door" technology used by NSA through Systematics in Little Rock).

When Koresh refused to turn it over (or when the government decided it needed to take terminal steps to obtain or destroy it), the government moved in. The place was torched (and efforts to escape suppressed) to ensure the "problem" was completely eliminated.

Far fetched? Perhaps, but why would the government insist on burning and gassing children over a couple of outstanding warrants. It's overkill and there was something Bill and Hillary wanted destroyed, IMO.

Freeper Countyline "….One of the top hackers leaving with program copies and having inserted a trap door to it, would likely leave a trail or conversation with others telling of his coup. Is it possible to pull off such a feat and tell no one; or leave hidden discs or evidence of his sensational ability and the story of it? ….."

To Countyline from Alamo-Girl "….IMHO you are right on target! It is and has been customary in the software development business since at least the introduction of floppy disks in the late 70’s - to keep multiple copies of source code tucked away offsite in secure locations. IMHO if software were the threat to national security, burning the compound wouldn’t make the problem go away. And even a trusted insider-government plant couldn't be sure they got all the copies... "

"……As far as Waco is concerned, I should be forthright in saying that I don't believe there are two parties, but rather one which is controlled by the NWO. Having said that, I think the possibility should be considered that the Waco invasion was conceived during the Bush administration, though not by Bush himself but by the NWO. I don't know when it began, but the government had agents that had infiltrated the Branch Davidians long before the raid. I would like to see a timeline on that and perhaps you know. At any rate, it would suggest to me that at least the monitoring of the BDs was an ongoing project irrespective of who was president, which begs the question of why they were being monitored. Wilcher's allegation of a mind control project would explain it. ……"

"……It may be possible that Clinton and the NWO wanted to modify the project to destroy the BDs and intimidate the American public. I don't know how much you have studied the subject, but portions of our government have been taken over by satanists and the descendents of the Nazis. They have been involved in satanic ritual abuse of children to create mind control subjects for the government, and they often use cults such as the BDs. They picked up on hideous human experiments where Hitler and his scientists left off. ………."

"……Another thing that troubles me is the involvement in Waco by the Cult Awareness Network. They are an intelligence front designed to spout disinformation about satanic ritual abuse and cults. The presence of CAN strongly suggests that mind control and possibly SRA was present at Waco. I hate to think it's possible, but myself and others have discussed on some threads that the BDs could possibly have been engaged in abuse of children for mind control purposes. There is no evidence and we'll probably never know what was really going on, but to me the CAN involvement is suspicious. ….."

10/17/96 Radio Interview of Gordon Novel (Installment IX) Freeper aristeides "……

I: Gordon, what was that ARV Plan that you were talking about?

C: Well, what, if I tell you what ARV stands for then, I'm going to be, there are going to be people who are going to say, "Now wait a second. That's kind of heavy duty. So I'm not going to tell you what it means.

By heavy duty I mean so outrageously unbelievable that you wouldn't know. But I can just tell you this. And if anybody in the Defense Department is listening, pay attention gentlemen. If this mess in Ohio is not cleaned up when I walk out of here and if I don't walk out on February 7th, on my birthday, I promise you I'm going to publish world wide your secret ARV Plans and the technology behind them, cause Colby gave them to me. And I can only tell you it probably cost him his life.

The evidence that you have in the Waco case came in from the same source. The ARV Plan gives you free energy. You don't have to pay for it. It's a one time cost. You pull your meter out of your box. You put this device in your box and that's the end of paying for electricity because in the world of atomic and subatomic systems there is a huge amount of space between the electrons and the nucleus of the atom. If the atom was as big as a baseball and the electrons were as big as a golf ball, you could put the golf ball on the Brooklyn Bridge and you could put-- Well I wouldn't say the Brooklyn Bridge, lets say the George Washington Bridge, you could put the nucleus of the atom, the proton and the neutron on the George Washington Bridge and the electrons would be on the Golden Gate Bridge. Anything in between is energy.

Interview with Gordon Novel 10/6/96 Freeper Ol' Dan Tucker "....Well, StarTech got the big 250 gallon propane container that the government swore up and down blew up and made that fire ball. And it's sitting over there. It was dead empty and had never been filled up. The government arson investigator, Paul Gray, swore before the Congress that he saw it blown up. The pictures of it, we have the original receipts now. We have the original-- It was an absolutely empty container. The University of Maryland was paid a quarter of a million dollars by the Justice Department to write a report that attributed that explosion in that blast over the church vault as being a hundred gallons of propane. Well, there's no-- And it's dead over the vault. The only propane container back there was an empty one and we now have it photographed so...."