DOWNSIDE LEGACY AT TWO DEGREES OF PRESIDENT CLINTON
SECTION: WACO INVESTIGATION ON FREE REPUBLIC
SUBSECTION: CARLOS GHIGLIOTTI
Revised 9/17/00

 

Dallas Morning News 10/7/99 Lee Hancock "…….High-quality copies of FBI infrared tapes released this week to Branch Davidian lawyers include repeated bursts of rhythmic flashes from both government positions and the sect's compound, and two experts hired by the sect's lawyer say the flashes must be gunfire. A third expert, retained by the House Government Reform committee, analyzed a lower-quality copy of the infrared tape, which was shot on the last day of a 1993 standoff with the sect near Waco. He also concluded that flashes visible on the tape had to be gunfire, a committee staffer confirmed Wednesday…."

Dallas Morning News 10/7/99 Lee Hancock "…….Information that the Houston lawyers presented to Mr. Danforth's team included an expert's analysis that the FBI's infrared videotapes released to the public, Congress and the courts appear to have been altered, Mr. Caddell said. If the same gaps and electronic anomalies appear in original tapes still in Justice Department custody, Mr. Caddell said, he will use that to challenge the government's fire investigation as fatally flawed………A former government recording expert hired by the Houston lawyer said he found repeated anomalies. "There's so much editing on this tape, it's ridiculous," said Steve Cain, who spent more than 20 years as an audio and video expert with the U.S. Secret Service and the Internal Revenue Service's national crime lab in Chicago. Mr. Cain said his analysis is preliminary because he has not been granted access to the original tapes. But he said his work has turned up evidence of erasures of audio, including the one-hour, 20-minute period before the compound fire……"

Dallas Morning News 10/7/99 Lee Hancock "…….Carlos Ghigliotti, an expert retained by the House panel investigating the Waco matter, was quoted by the Washington Post Wednesday that his analysis of the tapes convinced him that FBI agents shot in the direction of the Davidian compound on April 19. ….."

Dallas Morning News 10/7/99 Lee Hancock "…….The infrared tapes sent Monday to Mr. Caddell were described by Justice Department lawyers as "first-generation" copies of the original tapes shot at Waco on April 19, he said. ……. Inexplicably included in the opening minutes of that tape is an eight-minute portion date-stamped April 16. That footage appears to be a frozen infrared shot of an empty field with no images of the compound. Mr. Cain said that was one of the most egregious of what he described as dozens of unexplained anomalies. "And it appears that either insert edits or other types of over recordings were made by the same or different video camera sources," said his Sept. 30 preliminary report to Mr. Caddell. ……. Maurice Cox, a retired satellite imagery analyst and mathematician who worked for 33 years on secret government photo-reconnaissance projects said Wednesday that he shares many of Mr. Cain's concerns. He recently examined copies of the FBI infrared tapes released last month. "There are things that I don't understand. I don't know what they mean, but I know that you need to go to the master tapes and find out what in the hell is going on," said Mr. Cox, who lives in California. ……"

Dallas Morning News 10/7/99 Lee Hancock "…….Mr. Ghigliotti could not be reached Wednesday. In a statement released by the House Government Reform Committee, Chairman Dan Burton, R-Ind., said he had been briefed on his findings and found them "troubling." But he said that it was premature to draw conclusions. ......"

New York Post 1999? Brian Blomquist "…..An expert in thermal imaging has concluded that the FBI fired shots during the 1993 Waco siege, contrary to the government's claim that no shots were fired. "I conclude that the FBI fired shots that day," Carlos Ghigliotti, whose expertise has been sought by the House Government Reform Committee, told The Washington Post. "I conclude this based on the ground-view videotapes taken from several different angles simultaneously and based on the overhead thermal tape. The gunfire from the ground is there, without a doubt," he added. Ghigliotti, an expert in thermal imaging and videotape analysis who has done past work for the FBI, analyzed videotapes of the government siege on the Branch Davidian compound, which killed about 80 people near Waco, Texas. He said the tapes also show that the Branch Davidians were firing on the FBI agents during the siege, meaning the FBI could have returned fire based on the rules of engagement……."

New York Post 1999? Brian Blomquist "…..From 1991 to 1995, Ghigliotti, 42, was paid by the FBI as a thermal-imaging expert in an array of environmental-dumping cases, according to an FBI document. Ghigliotti "performed reliable work for the FBI," the 1995 document states. In 1993, Ghigliotti was sentenced to 18 months of unsupervised probation and fined $250 for assaulting the owner of a dump site. Ghigliotti, who had prepared documents for a Maryland environmental agency, alleged that the dump-site owner duped him by posing as a county watchman to improperly gain access to the documents……. The Government Reform Committee also is re-investigating Waco - and is going to ask other video/thermal experts, besides Ghigliotti, to analyze the tapes. ….."

DRUDGE 4/29/00 "…..Police said Saturday they are investigating the death of an expert hired by a congressional committee who alleged last October that shots were fired in the Waco siege. There was no sign of a break-in or struggle at the firm of Infrared Technology outside Washington where the badly decomposed body of Carlos Ghigliotti, 42, was found Friday afternoon, Laurel police said in a news release. Ghigliotti had not been seen for several weeks. The office of the chief medical examiner for the state of Maryland was performing an autopsy in Baltimore. The autopsy wasn't expected to be completed until Monday. ………."

Washington Post 4/29/00 Cindy Loose "…….Carlos Ghigliotti, who had been retained by a U.S. House committee to help investigate the 1993 siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Tex., was found dead in Laurel under unexplained circumstances yesterday. "We're investigating it as a homicide," said Laurel police spokesman Jim Collins. Ghigliotti, 42, was found about 1:30 p.m. in the 600 block of Washington Boulevard. His body was badly decomposed, said police. There were no signs of a break-in or a struggle at the home, where Ghigliotti ran his business, Infrared Technologies Corp., police said……… "

Washington Post 4/29/00 "…….A building manager, concerned that no one had seen Ghigliotti for some weeks, contacted police, who found the body…….Ghigliotti's body was transported to the chief medical examiner's office in Baltimore for an autopsy……."

Washington Post 4/29/00 "…….Michael Caddell, lead lawyer in a $100 million wrongful death lawsuit stemming from the Waco siege, said last night that he recently had discussed the findings with Ghigliotti and intended to retain him--not only because his work was impressive but also because Caddell's first expert had suffered a stoke recently…."

Washington Post 4/29/00 "……. Caddell said that two weeks ago he wrote to Waco Special Counsel John C. Danforth, urging that he interview Ghigliotti immediately. Caddell said he'd heard of Ghigliotti's death yesterday from Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.), chair of the committee that retained Ghigliotti. Police called Burton, Caddell said, because his business card was found in Ghigliotti's pocket……."

Freeper Ian Goddard 4/29/00 "……I'd previously spoken to Dr Edward Allard, who almost died of a heart attack the week before the FLIR test, the same week that another witness for the plaintiffs suddenly died of a heart attack. When I called Allard yesterday, I was told that he can no longer talk about Waco. Since Allard's disabling stroke, the attorney's for the plaintiffs have been looking for another FLIR expert and were going to sign on Carlos Ghigliotti, but unfortunately he was just found dead yesterday. Are they knocking them off one by one, or what?…………. "

Freeper Map Kernow 4/29/00 "……"He also told me that that the House Gov't Reform Committee had even more data than he did, that he knew only part of it and couldn't talk about it, but that it was really shocking."…..Thank you for all we're likely to know about the untimely end of Carlos Ghigliotti. Let me add to the above datum that it is also likely that people in the Cox Commission have information on the extent of Chinese espionage and cooperation by the Clinton Administration, that ranges far beyond what they considered fit to release. I've been told that it's 100x anyone's worst imaginings. But apparently none of us are going to know until after Clinton leaves power, if that ever happens. ….."

Freeper Map Kernow 4/29/00 "……My source is a fellow FReeper who lives in Newport Beach in Cox's District, who went to "Town Hall" meetings featuring Cong. Cox (who really is a decent guy) and got this kind of feedback. My constituent buddy figures that the *ahem!* "bipartisan" character of the Cox Report prevented the worst details from getting into the report, in order to get acquiescence in the final report from the Democrats on the committee rather than the usual partisan sniping. Maybe Cox didn't figure on all the partisan sniping once the report was released from those Democrats who weren't on the committee! ….."

Freeper robnoel 4/29/00 "…….I have had McNaulty on my show many times I will have him on again Monday sorry I can't say what hour...however Thursday last week in Ft.Collins he showed for the first time the slides (FLIR) in question....there is no question about what it shows....unlike watching "WACO "THE NEW REVALATION" on video this was shown in a movie theater.....he proved that the FBI had doctored a frame of video....this was a scene where the first shots were fired from the FBI chopper....on the FBI video no one is seen in the court yard however in the tape McNaulty has you can clearly see someone.....and the agents laying fire into the building from behind the tank......amazing! ….."

Freeper Ada Coddington 4/29/00 David Hardy http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/carlos.html "……What follows is something I have not been able to reveal prior to this point. As I mention at the end, I am now released from my promise of secrecy. Please forgive the length--I think you'll find it worthwhile. This covers many months of evidence and conversations, which I've had to keep quiet.

The House Gov't Reform Committee had retained an infrared expert named Carlos Ghigliotti, of Laurel, Md. Carlos had been working on the FLIR for months, and shared a lot of his results with me. I'd pass him data when he needed it, and he knew he could count on me to keep my mouth shut. Carlos had done a lot of IR work -- including using it to spot polluters contaminating Chesapeake Bay, and diagnosing electronic errors (a bad connection or phase mismatch heats up). He loved his work, and was proud of some electronic inventions which enabled him to link together visual and IR imaging into a single image. He got into some courtroom work--chiefly determining if FLIR used to justify a drug search warrant was properly used or not. He had two principles: (1) if retained, he would tell the absolute truth as to everything and (2) he would never accept a second retainer from a drug suspect. No matter how egregious the misuse a second time around, he wasn't interested in being of assistance to a man who violated the law a second time.

He'd just had a case where an attorney tried to grill him... but the more questions the guy asked, the deeper he got into the hole, until the courtroom security guards were all wandering in and sitting in the back, amusing themselves at the attorney's expense. Carlos knew his stuff, and he laid it right on the line.

I talked with Carlos over the phone a lot, and visited him in his lab a couple of times. I now forget the first one, but the second visit was the day Mike McNulty previewed his latest film in DC.

Thru the committee, Carlos was able to obtain a much better quality tape than any anyone else had. He discovered that, when FBI gave out "first generation copies," it was in fact giving out copies of a digitized "master," not of the original analog tape. Digitization compresses the image, and loses some of its quality. He demanded and got, thru the Committee, a copy of the original tape, on Super VHS, with some other tweakings to make it the most perfect copy possible. He said they brought out the envelope with the original--it had about twenty chain-of-custody signatures on it. He figured that his copy was as close to identical to the original tape as it was possible to have--whereas the ones everyone else has been using are a few generations down.

Then he imported the video into his lab equipment (which I've seen--VERY impressive--four big monitors, Super VHS decks, two computers with more speed, RAM, and hard drive than I ever thought possible.). He was thorough, refusing to make a finding until he had it pinned down from every angle. In one case, he told me last month, he'd finally managed to link by time and location an image of a person shouldering a weapon, shown on the regular media videotapes made from the media locations, with a flash on the FLIR.

He found nearly 200 suspected gunshots, and had done the work necessary to verify that many of these were genuine. Understand that his idea of "verify" wasn't just to see the image. He wanted to find the shooters, as well, and to plot their movement from one flash location to another. And he wanted to correlate the FLIR images to every possible ordinary video image, to see if he could link up what the media filmed from the side with what the FLIR registered from overhead. He was really hot on getting some footage shot by DPS from a site behind the building, so that he could tie that in as well. This man was thorough--no rushing to judgment on anything. His normal standard was to study everything from every possible angle or potential critique, until he could lay all the cards on the table, be absolutely clear, and defend his conclusions against any criticism. And he knew this was no normal case... as he once said, the Waco FLIR was probably going to be the next Zapuder film, and he wasn't going to say something that he couldn't prove against any criticism.

On the side (and I have no idea why he was analyzing this) he said it had been determined that almost the entire Waco operation, not only 2/28 but the siege, had been improperly financed from money that law enforcement was supposed to use only in the war on drugs. He said there was plenty of documentation here, showing flow of money. In the 2/28 videotape, the ATF agents are all trying on new uniforms, new equipment -- everything down to the computers in the media area of the raid HQ were bought out of money supposed to be used only in drug enforcement. He said that much or all of the siege had been financed the same way. There were written standards in the gov't for when the drug enforcement money could be used, and these could be shown to have been violated in black and white terms. A considerable amount of money had been, well, embezzled, to support the effort.

Carlos also told me, last month, that he'd seen FLIRs from nights before 4/19, and that it was apparent that the FLIR aircraft was being used to monitor the Davidians' water supply. The water was stored in those big plastic tanks at the rear of the building, and the coolness of the water inside showed up as a darker area. It was apparent that the water supply was shrinking, and by 4/19 was almost gone. He had heard the aircraft crew talking about it, and noting that the level was going down. So, essentially, they knew that thirst would force an end to the siege within a few days of 4/19.

While I was in his lab, he showed me some footage where it was clear, beyond any doubt, that a man was moving in the wreckage of the gym. The guy gets up from behind one pile of cover and races to another. In between, you see a very long flash that exists only for an instant -- much longer in terms of physical length than could be attributed to a gunshot. He said that was a bullet imaged in flight--he'd imaged them before, while flying past shooting ranges. (Shooters know that a bullet after firing is too hot to pick up in the hand, a product of being rammed down a barrel ahead of burning powder, and then of air resistance as it travels at Mach 2-3 thru the air. I'd never suspected that one would show up on IR.). These scenes I saw with my own eyes, on his equipment--it was clear there was a person there.

He'd done a preliminary report for the House committee before they had a falling out--he wanted to do a really throrough job, which he said would take months, and they wanted him to do a final report quickly. (He also mentioned that they'd been slow in payment, and he'd needed their check to buy some more equipment that he wanted to devote to the final analysis.). He said that someone (I think he said Rep. Burton himself) had called and threatened that they'd sue him for what he'd already been paid, and he decided he wouldn't take that guff from anyone. He would finalize his report, brief everyone, and that would be it.

The prelim report I have here (he wanted to keep it secret for the time being, and faxed me a copy with instructions to keep my mouth shut. As will be set out below, I think I have been released from that promise.). To summarize:

11:24:16 to 36: shots from two locations into hole made by CEV in gym.

11:24:50 to 11:25:04 apparent return fire from inside of gym.

11:26:13 to 11:26:27 additional return fire. If the dark objects behind the tank are indeed shooters, this may have pinned them down. Following this, the tank backs over the dark spots.

11:26:39 "One of the two unknown subjects is clearly visible exiting out of the hole in the front wall of the gym which the tank previously made. The unknown subject turns to the right into the courtyard."

11:28:04 to 11:28:14: gunfire from this person's approximate position, directed toward building.

11:28:18 to 11:28:22: return fire from structure.

11:30:09 to 11:30:15: gunfire from shooter in courtyard, toward building.

11:33:51: gunfire between gym wall and swimming pool, into the structure. The infrared signature of these shots differs from those seen earlier in courtyard area.

11:34:32: one shot at unknown subject that is running and hiding between gym and swimming pool. [This may be the one he showed me]

11:38:34: unknown subject is seen hiding in front of tank.

11:43:36 to 11:59:03: gunshots from 2d story of building directed at tank (I believe he is here referring to the tank penetrating the front).

12:03:59: An unknown subject appears next to the tank in rear of structure.

12:07:42: fire is visible in 2nd story tower.

12:08:12: Unknown subject comes out of tank and shows up at 12:08:51 shooting at another unknown subject that appears at 12:08:34.

12:08:31 to 12:08:32: "A cluster of thermal anomalies appears at the corner of the gym."

12:08:34 and 12:08:44: unknown subject runs from the area where the thermal anomalies were seen, hops over rubble, and hides in gym.

12:08:51: automatic gunfire into area where previous subject hides.

12:10:41 to 12:11:15 numerous rounds shot from center of courtyard, directed at structure.

Past this point, nothing of importance since fire overloads FLIR, but visible media and the soundtrack of FLIR indicates that gunfire did continue.

He notes that events at 11:24:31, 11:24:35 and 11:28:14 may have involved more than one shot.

He notes that a pattern was apparent: Davidian return fire only occurred following penetration of the building by an armored vehicle. "Total number of events that occurred between 10:41:57 and 12:16:13: 198."

He told me, in late March, that he'd met with both the majority and the minority of the committee (after they sorta broke off relations) and shown them his results. Each briefing was in detail and consumed several hours. I forget the exact numbers, but somewhere around 3-8 people, mostly attorneys for the committee, were present at each briefing. He was still working on a final report when last I spoke with him. He was rather miffed that they had not given him time to analyze everything, and said he intended to insert a final section outlining all the things he had wanted to analyze when relations were broken off. He added that the minority staff had been rather surprised to see the data, since apparently the majority had been informing them only of a minimal amount of his results. Some of them suggested that maybe both the Demos and Republicans could hire him on jointly, to do a really thorough piece of work. He was rather flattered at the idea (if Carlos had any politics, I never heard of it) altho he said he was suffering from "Waco fatigue" and wanted to get back to his regular work, or even a long overdue vacation.

My memory may be imperfect here, but as I recall he talked about the scene at the rear, where there is that big flash near the "dog house." His interpretation: The flash appeared to be multiple flash-bangs. It was possible they were actually thrown by a Davidian, altho not certain. But right after it, a person can be see running back into the building. A hatch opens on the CEV. When it opens, the cooler, darker interior of the vehicle is visible. A person exits the hatch. This is not totally clear, and some people agreed with his interpretation and others did not. But the person who dismounts then fires, the shots going toward the last location where the suspected Davidian is seen. He added that the Committee knew exactly who was under that hatch, so they could actually name the guy who did it. He could afterward track at least two suspected FBI shooters. He could spot their location--one stayed in the gym wreckage, and the other moved out into the courtyard, where he shoots. Ian Goddard had spotted what he thought was a structure, alongside the gym, and from which some shots come. I checked a color photo, and the structure is actually a big chunk of gym wall that the tank has knocked over and falls outward into the courtyard. I mentioned that to Carlos, and Carlos said it was more complex than that. The shooter had been in the courtyard to begin with, and the tank knocked the wall segment atop him. If there hadn't been other wreckage to catch it and hold it up a bit, he would have been squashed. I believe Carlos said that the gunshot images from that location were a little distorted, probably because the wall segment was cutting off part of the image at times.

Carlos also found indications that shots were being fired into the underground storm shelter after the fire began. On one of the regular media videotapes, you could see a long, bright flash going down into the pit, from in front of one of the armored vehicles. He said it was no sunlight flash, he'd imaged it on three different media tapes from slightly different angles. His best assessment was that it was the fuse on a pyrotechnic round. I saw this tape, also, with my own eyes. His view was that they were gassing the underground vault to pin Davidians in place during the fire.

Carlos was about as credible as they come. He'd done work for the FBI in the past, in fact, and often worked with gov't agencies. He had no particular ax to grind with regard to Waco: he once told me "the only thing that makes me mad about this is when I can see government officials making statements, and know for an absolute fact that they are lying." He also told me that that the House Gov't Reform Committee had even more data than he did, that he knew only part of it and couldn't talk about it, but that it was really shocking. He said that the big problem the Committee seemed to see was the question of how they could get the information out, while at the same time preventing another Oklahoma City type reprisal--it was that shocking. This conversation came shortly after Carlos' name had first been mentioned in the press, and the Committee rather played down his statements, saying they were based on visual video rather than FLIR (which was true only in small part). I asked about that--was the Committee getting cold feet over his evidence, or just playing their cards close to the chest. He said it was the latter -- they just hadn't figured out how to let the info out yet. (He was then meeting with the majority on a weekly basis, to brief them on his latest results.).

I talked to him after the recreation, and his assessment was that it was pure junk -- the aircraft wasn't even at the right altitude, they didn't have the right procedures to verify that the sensor was functioning comparable to the one of 4/19, etc. The best thing that could be done with any resulting tape (and this is BEFORE the results were known) was to drop it in the wastecan. Whether it showed gunshots or did not, it'd be useless for proving anything, whether for the Davidians or the FBI.

I remember talking to him outside his office, after the first visit, standing there in the parking lot after dark. He'd mentioned that the guy with Infraspection Institute, who had analyzed the FLIR for 60 Minutes back in '95 or '96, and found FBI gunshots and shooters on it, had been terrified. In fact, he'd sent copies of the tape to Carlos and to several others in the IR field, with notes saying "If anything happens to me, you'll know why." (The same guy later called me, said he didn't want his name used, that "there are too many people already in their graves over this." I wrote him off as him being rather nervous.).

I asked Carlos, there in the parking lot, if he'd ever been fearful. He said only for a while, between the time he made his findings and the time he reported them to the Committee. Then he had been worried, because he was looking at clear evidence that would nail a LOT of FBI agents on perjury, and perhaps much worse. But once he told others of his results, he figured the cat was out of the bag.

This is a rather long post, but there is a reason. It's in part a memorial for a feisty and totally honest guy I came to like a good deal.

On April 19 of this year, from the hotel room in Waco, I called Carlos to report a minor discovery (the roof of the storm shelter, which glows bright white on the FLIR, wasn't just plywood--it was covered in black asphalt, which explained why it got so hot in the sun.). I got his answering machine, but when it came time to leave a message, the tape just said "tape finished. Thank you for calling." I thought he'd run out of tape--never happened before, but who knows? I tried again from time to time -- same result. I sent email asking him to call. Well, maybe he was out of town. Early today I tried again, and this time nothing picked up, the phone just rang off the hook.

Then this afternoon I received a call. Carlos was found dead in his apartment. Perhaps the guy with Infraspection was right. I've got a call in to Laurel PD to tell them what little I know.... my phone records show calls to him up thru 3/30, after that he must have called me but there's no record, and I was unable to reach him on 4/19 and thereafter.

Too damn bad. He was a good man, and I'd come rather to like him. He was rigorously honest -- his own man, and no one elses'. Since the Committee has his results (and has had information on it for months now), I guess we'll soon know how serious they are about investigating Waco.

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Note: Carlos Ghigliotti was the owner of Infrared Technologies Corp. in Laurel, Maryland. Washington Post reports that from 1991 to 1995, Ghigliotti, 42, was paid by the FBI as a thermal imaging expert on an array of environmental dumping cases, according to an FBI document. Ghigliotti "performed reliable work for the FBI," the 1995 document states. http://www.waco93.com/washingtonpost10_6_99.htm ….."

Freeper Lex 4/29/00 "…..April 29, 2000 4:20 am Arizona Time I just called the Laurel Police Department and got this statement:

"At 1:27 PM officers were called to 608 Washington Blvd., Laurel, Maryland, in response to a phone call about a man who had been missing for several weeks.

When officers arrived they found no signs of forced entry. Inside the apartment they found a badly decomposed body of a male, appearing to be in his 40's. No sign of a struggle was observed at that time. The body was processed and sent to the chief medical examiner in Baltimore. The body was of Carlos Ghigliotti, 42 yrs. of age, who resided at the same address where he was found."

Public Relations Officer Jim Collins 350 Municipal Square Laurel, MD 20707 Phone: 301-498-0092

This is all I have for now... there should be a full story from Dallas Morning News and The Washington Post in a few hours.

Freeper Demidog 4/29/00 "…. I've corresponded on and off with David T. Hardy for about 7 years. I've known him to be fair and truthfull to a fault. ……"

Freeper Republic 4/29/00 "….My guess-he was trying to contact DAN BURTON the day he was killed-or while he was dying. He found something out...something that would rock the WACO boat and expose the putrid underbelly of that creepy tortuous massacre ….."

Freeper Covenantor 4/29/00 "…… Several weeks and no one complained about the smell of the 'badly decomposed body'? No mention of of ransacking his studio area (he ran the business from home). No colleagues or friends tried to reach him in that period? Who now has control of the office/residence? The business card found sounds like a warning. .Wonder why Danforth hasn't taken control of the office/residence?….."

Freeper roughrider 4/29/00 "…… I guess those women who run the firm Infraspection in California were right to withdraw their participation in the "60 Minutes" piece about Waco that was referred to in WACO: THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. As soon as they saw that gunfire was directed into the building, and pyrotechnic explosions were visible on the FLIR, Infraspection told "60 Minutes" in a letter that they wanted out of the story. There will be only one story told, and that is the Davidians got what they had coming to them. Since the vast majority of Americans did not lose any family members in the assault, they do not care, and look with suspicion and even alarm at those of us who do……"

Freeper wooly_mammoth 4/29/00 "….."The business card found sounds like a warning." Yup, it sure does….."

Reply from Dave Hardy 5/3/00 "…..

Freeper Covenantor 4/29/00 "…… Several weeks and no one complained about the smell of the 'badly decomposed body'?

I've wondered about that one, too. no idea. It was in an office building, and corpses, well, do get awful rank after a while. I know I tried to contact him with no success on 4/19, ten days before he was found, so it'd be at least ten days and maybe more.

No mention of of ransacking his studio area (he ran the business from home).

Press reports are wrong, here. The address where he was found, 608 Washington Blvd in Laurel, was his office, not his home. It's on the third floor of an office building. I've been there... no living quarters at all. A two-room office, one room for desks, one for his electronics lab.

No colleagues or friends tried to reach him in that period?

Again, I dunno. Some may have tried, as I did, and assumed he was out of town. I tried on 4/19, several times later, until 4/29 right around when he was found. Never occured to me that something was really wrong. I go out of town from time to time, and my voicemail computer sometimes crashes or I am sloppy about returning calls. I knew he'd had an out of state court case, and had been talking about finally taking a vacation, so I figured it was one of those.

Who now has control of the office/residence? The business card found sounds like a warning.

I suspect he was just carrying it around, in case he wanted to have the number at home or at the office. I'm told it was found in his wallet.

Wonder why Danforth hasn't taken control of the office/residence?….." Freeper roughrider 4/29/00 "…… I guess those women who run the firm Infraspection in California were right to withdraw their participation in the "60 Minutes" piece about Waco that was referred to in WACO: THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. As soon as they saw that gunfire was directed into the building, and pyrotechnic explosions were visible on the FLIR, Infraspection told "60 Minutes" in a letter that they wanted out of the story.

I think a lady runs (ran) Infraspection, but the analyst was a guy. He was the one who first told me about Carlos, back in '96 or so. He was scared ****less, too. Called me up, I could hear his voice shaking, said "too many people have ended up in their graves already over this!" Said he had another analyst who'd be willing to look at the tape.

I thought him a trifle nervous at the time. Since he was the one who recommended Carlos, I suspect wherever he's living now, he's in his basement with a rifle pointed at the staircase. I can't say as I'd blame him too much, which is one reason I carefully avoid using his name here……"

Washington Post 4/18/97 Richard Leiby Jim McGee "….."A year ago, around the time of the last Waco anniversary, the FBI was able to make this gunfire matter go away quietly. CBS News's "60 Minutes" was asking about those strange flashes on the FLIR tape. Its producers hired another expert who said he believed they were gunfire. Those are not gunshots, FBI officials insisted. They're reflections of sunlight on broken glass and blowing debris. And besides, there are no shooters visible on the tape, the FBI pointed out. You can't have gunshots without shooters. "60 Minutes" never ran a story. "I reached the conclusion that this was inconclusive," says Rome Hartman, a "60 Minutes" producer. The "Waco" documentary makers point to this as proof of a continuing cover-up. FBI spokesmen point to the same fact as confirming that the gunshot theory is nonsense. …….."

Freeper aristeides 4/29/00 "…… So maybe something untoward did happen on April 19 of this year. If so, somebody has a ghoulish sense of humor. Speaking of things that happened on April 19th, I couldn't help but be struck by this: He said that the big problem the Committee seemed to see was the question of how they could get the information out, while at the same time preventing another Oklahoma City type reprisal--it was that shocking. ……… The OK City bombing occurred a few weeks before the Burton subcommittee hearings on Waco in 1995. Could being able to make this argument have been one of the reasons why the FBI and other government agencies allowed the bombing to happen?……. By the way, I can't understand why preventing another OK City bombing would be more important than cleaning up federal law enforcement and discrediting the guilty parties. Let ten such bombings happen. If the government can be cleaned up in the process, it would be a price well worth paying. I am a federal employee, and I am quite willing to subject myself to the risk of being the victim of such a bombing under these circumstances……"

Freeper aristeides 4/30/00 "….. Remember that the final assault on Waco was 50 years to the day of the final assault on the Warsaw Ghetto, which was intended to be Hitler's Birthday present. And also, as a Washington Post story from later that week that Wallaby found tells us, Clinton paid a two-hour visit to the new Holocaust Museum "late" on that day of the final assault at Waco, Apr. 19, 1993……"

NewsMax.com 4/30/00 David Hardy "…….David Hardy is an attorney who has been involved in civil litigation relating to the Waco raid of 1993. Mr. Hardy had significant deals with Carlos Ghigliotti, an expert Congress had hired to review infra-red film taken during the FBI raid of the Koresh compound. For the first time Mr. Hardy reveals what Mr. Ghigliotti told him about the film…..."

For the last year I have been privy to certain secrets which I was sworn not to reveal. For reasons I'll mention later, I am now released from my promise of secrecy.

The presence of FBI gunshots on the Waco FLIR [Forward-Looking InfraRed] videotapes has been news for the past few months, but the story had been setting on media shelves for years before that time.

The FLIR videotapes were made by an FBI aircraft orbiting the Davidian building, and show the scene as if it were a black and white video, in terms of heat and cold. The most important tapes were made on April 19, 1993, the day of the fire.

On that day, FBI swore again and again, it did not fire a single shot, and tried its best to keep Davidians from burning in the blaze.

My involvement in the Waco matter began in 1995, when a friend of my contacted me about the case. Apparently "60 Minutes" had taken an interest in the aerial infra-red footage and has sent it to be analyzed by a private firm called Infraspection. While experts at Infraspection determined the blips of light on the footage was gunfire, "60 Minutes" decided to not air the story at that time.

I contacted Infraspection and they offered me the names of other infrared specialists who might be willing to take on the work.

They highly recommended a Carlos Ghigliotti, who ran a lab in Laurel, Md.

I spoke with Carlos, but it was no-go.

He said that before he would put his name on an opinion, he would need a first-generation copy of the original FBI tape; he would stake his reputation on nothing less than the best material. At that point, the best we had were third-generation copies in VHS, so we had to let the matter go.

Three years later, in late 1999, I got a call from Carlos. He needed some other Waco videos which I had pried out of the FBI and ATF.

He related that he has been retained by the House Government Reform Committee, chaired by Congrssman Dan Burton, and was examining the FLIR tape under their authority.

Carlos added that he had obtained a remarkable copy of the FLIR, a quantum leap above what anyone else possessed. He had discovered that, even when FBI said it was passing out a first-generation copy, it was in fact giving out a copy, not of the original tape, but of a digitized "master copy."

Knowing that digitization compresses the image and discards detail, Carlos had demanded and gotten a copy of the original 1993 tape, made in Super VHS with some format specifications which ensured it had all the sharpness and quality of the original.

By good fortune, I was flying to his area on some work anyway, so I arranged to visit him in his lab.

It was impressive. He had a bank of Super VHS recorders feeding a row of large monitors, and tapped into a pair of the hottest computers I'd yet seen. With this, and some hardware he had personally designed, he could coordinate two, three, or four different videos and show them in parallel, frame by frame; thus an infrared image could be played alongside a simultaneous video made in visible light.

He was a pilot, and used the arrangement to track things such as illegal water pollution (the polluting water is generally warmer than the river or bay into which it flows, and thus shows up on infrared, while the coordinate visible image makes it easy to spot the location.).

Carlos had no politics that I ever noted, he was proud of his skill, and he was rigorously honest. He staked his reputation on every opinion, and made sure that it was unimpeachable.

In fact, he once mentioned, he'd been hired by FBI in the past, and cited them as a reference. He would let the chips fall where they might.

Sitting there in his lab, I was a bit cautious about asking his opinion of the Waco tape. I got a feeling, though, when he remarked, "The only thing that pisses me off over this, Dave, is when I hear government officials lying about things that I KNOW happened, because I've seen the evidence."

It was perhaps typical of him: a lack of honesty was more offensive to him than the prospect of official abuse or even homicide. Carlos lived by the truth, and could not condone any failure in that arena.

Carlos did offer me a few previews. He ran a portion of the FLIR video, which depicted events after an FBI tank had demolished the large room, commonly known as "the gym,' at the back of the Davidian's home.

By this point, the gym was a field of construction rubble loosely attached to the main building. In the midst of the image a strange flash occurred, perhaps ten feet long.

I asked what it was--clearly it was too long for a gun flash.

"That's a bullet in flight," Carlos said. I knew that a bullet after firing is far too hot to pick up, but I'd never realized they could be seen in infrared. I asked him if he was sure.

"I've imaged them when I've flown over shooting ranges. I know what I see there," was his reply.

Carlos rewound the tape.

"Now, let's see what he was shooting at." He pointed to a spot in the gym wreckage. The unmistakable image of a human being was there, jumping up from behind the cover of one pile of wreckage and sprinting to dive behind another.

The bullet flash came just after he dove down.

"Missed him by half a second," Carlos said.

I almost gasped. On my FLIR copies -- previously described a first generation, the best you could get -- the flash was visible but the man was not.

Carlos' copy, and equipment -- and his eye for detail -- had found the holy grail.

He had proof that FBI was lying.

FBI agents had dismounted from the tanks and engaged in a foot assault, invading the building.

"Yes," Carlos said, "they're lying."

He showed me another preview. This one was from ordinary color video, shot by telephoto media cameras from their position miles away. It was shot aftter the fire was already raging. The images were blurry and the angle shallow--bushes and tanks blocked part of the view of FBI agents moving around.

I'd seen the tape before, but Carlos' eye had seen what mine had not.

"Watch this guy here," he said, pointing to a specific human image on the other side of the parked tanks.

The agent moved, stopped.... and took a shooting stance. You couldn't see the weapon, but it was the stance of a man shouldering a rifle.

Then he turned his head toward the cameras, saw that he was on a line-of-sight with the media positions, and suddenly ducked down and lunged in front of one of the tanks.

That wasn't all. Carlos showed me another of the conventional video sequences.

From in front of one of the tanks, a long bright streak of fire came, looking like a large tracer bullet.

"That's not a sunlight flash. I've imaged the same flash from videos taken at two... no, three... different angles," Carlos said. "I think it's the fuse on a pyrotechnic grenade."

The "pyros" are teargas shells, well known for starting fires.

I noticed that the angle of the flash was decidedly downward. Carlos explained that the FBI was shooting down into the Davidian's underground storm shelter, sometimes called "the pit."

I said wait a second.... the pit was the exit of the underground tunnel leading out of the Davidian house.

The tunnel was where the FBI (incorrectly) thought the women and children had been placed.... so now FBI is gassing what it thought was their only escape route out of the fire. Carlos nodded affirmatively.

Before I left that day, Carlos gave me another tip.

There is a soundtrack on the last FLIR tape -- I should listen to it carefully. When I got back to my office, I did just that.

Before I was through, my jaw was sagging. FBI officials had admitted they stopped fire engines from responding to the fire, but only for a few minutes, until they thought it was safe for the engines to go in.

The soundtrack of the FLIR picks up their radio traffic that day. On the soundtrack, the commander at the scene is calling for fire engines, being told they are on the way, and hearing reports that none are arriving.

He finally gets so upset that he screams into the radio "IF YOU HAVE ANY FIRE ENGINES DOWN THERE, GET THEM UP HERE IMMEDIATELY."

He is told they will be there momentarily.... and none arrive.

Either he had been overruled by higher command, or the agents had gone insubordinate and were making sure the Davidians would burn. There was also a strange conversation about someone outside the building, and then pops that sounded like gunfire, and the FLIR aircraft pilot's asking another crewman "did you hear that?"

Carlos and I stayed in touch by telephone and email. I sent him useful data when I found it, and kept my mouth shut.

By the end, Carlos told me that he had spotted nearly 200 likely gunshots, many at full auto.

The FBI hadn't merely fired shots on April 19, it had hosed down the back of the building with rapid gunfire.

Carlos had carefully plotted the movements of each shooters. He could now show shots from one location, the shooter moving to another, and shots from his new site.

At least two individuals were shooting, close in to the building, with others lending support from a distance. And, all the while, FBI was going out with press statements claiming that the flashes could not be gunfire because no shooters were visible near them.

The FBI was digging itself deeper and deeper into the hole.

Carlos also told me that he'd seen FLIRs from nights before the gassing assault, and that it was apparent that the FLIR aircraft was being used to monitor the Davidians' water supply.

The water was stored in those big plastic tanks at the rear of the building, and the coolness of the water inside showed up as a darker area. It was apparent that the water supply was shrinking, and by 4/19 was almost gone. He had heard the aircraft crew talking about it, and noting that the level was going down.

So, essentially, they knew that thirst would force an end to the siege within a few days of 4/19. Which also meant that the FBI officials had lied to Reno when they said the Davidians had plenty of food and water and the siege was unlikely to end soon.

During this timeframe, Carlos' name first cropped up in the press, as an expert for the House Government Reform Committee who had opined that the FBI fired shots. Strangely, the Committee distanced itself from its own expert, stating in the same article that his opinion was based on regular video rather than FLIR -- which wasn't the case.

I asked Carlos if the Committee was abandoning him and covering matters up.

No, he replied, it was quite the opposite. He was briefing them on virtually a weekly basis.

They had uncovered a lot more information than he had. What he knew he couldn't talk about, except that one tiny part of it was that, not only the initial ATF raid, but the entire siege, had been funding out of money dedicated to the war on drugs.

One might say that the entire Waco affair was funded by official embezzlement, since all legal guidelines for use of those millions had been violated by ATF and FBI.

There were other things, he added. But these could simply not be let out.

They were sufficiently shocking to where the Committee was genuinely concerned that, if known, they might inspire violent retribution from radicals.

I said I'd heard statements like that -- the truth about Waco could not be explored, for fear of violence, but discarded them as agency excuses.

Carlos said no -- the fear is real, and it's not poppycock. The truth is really that grim. The Committee had not yet figured out how to reveal the truth without running this risk, and until it did, it had to disavow his work and sit on the other information.

Much of the data was in the hands of certain key reporters (a few of whom he named), and they were sitting on it for the same reason. But it would come out in time.

In March of this year, Carlos called with several more discoveries, that truly sealed the matter.

He'd managed to spot when a hatch opened on the tank at the back of the building, and when a crewman got out of it.

That crewman then fired at an image of a man who fled back into the burning building. Carlos had said that the House Government Reform Committee knew the name of the FBI agent under that hatch. When his testimony was taken, he denied everything -- but began shaking violently as he did so.

Carlos had another breakthrough. I'd spotted a strange flash on the tape, and for once had found one that he'd missed. While he was looking for that, however, he found some other flashes.

He told me that he could now link, by time and place, one of the conventional video images of an FBI agent taking a shooting stance, to the FLIR image of a gun flash at the same location and instant in time. The case was now open and shut.

Then, sometime in March of this year, his relationship with the Committee began to break up. I have only his side of the story on this. Apparently, the committee staff wanted quick results.

His response was that he had cataloged nearly 200 likely gunshots. To pin down each one to the certainty he required would take some more months. He wanted, not merely to say something looked like a gunshot, but that after examining every other possibility, after tying in the media videotapes and soundtracks, that there was no possibility it could be anything else.

He had reached that certaintly with some gunshots, but not with the rest. The staffers got into arguments with him -- they wanted results, now.

Some threatened not only to stop payment, but to sue him for what he'd already been paid. Chairman Burton himself called and tried to chew him out.

I urged him to stay on with them -- this was vital, and politicos were often hard to work with, you just had to put up with them. He called back a day later and said he'd thought it over and, no, he had better things to do than work with people who threatened him.

He was going to give a preliminary report, brief majority and minority staff, finish his report on the gunshots of which he was certain, and present that with a list of all the things he had not been able to analyze.

On March 18, he faxed me a copy of his preliminary report, identifying when the FBI agent (described simply as an "unknown subject") exited the tank hatch, and the gunfire of which he was certain, together with a brief outline of the movements of the FBI shooters. (As it turns out, this fax is apparently the only surviving copy of that preliminary report, other than those given to the Committee.). In late March, he briefed the staffs.

It goes without saying that by this point, Carlos had become a rather dangerous commodity.

He had found the most solid of evidence that implicated virtually the entire of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, and FBI's high command, in clear perjury.

To the extent they were shooting and gassing in order to pin people in the fire, they were tied in on attempted murder, and accessory after the fact to attempted murder, as well.

Men were collecting government pensions who deserved to be in prison. The survival of HRT -- the reputation and perhaps survival of the FBI -- were on the line.

This was far worse than J. Edgar Hoover's COINTELPRO, far worse than Watergate, and after years of covering up, the entire agency hierarchy was now stuck to the tar baby.

Now Carlos was no longer under the Committee's control; he was free to talk to whomsoever he chose. Indeed, he had already briefed one of the Davidian's attorneys, and was mulling over whether to testify in the wrongful death suit they had brought.

I've said that I had sworn secrecy, and that I'm now released from that promise. This is a rather long article, but there is a reason. It's in part a memorial for a feisty and totally honest guy I came to like a good deal.

On April 19 of this year, from a hotel room in Waco, I called Carlos to report a minor discovery I had just made at the scene. I got his answering machine, but when it came time to leave a message, the tape just said "tape finished. Thank you for calling."

I thought he'd run out of tape--never happened before, but who knows?

I tried again from time to time -- same result. I sent email asking him to call. No reply. Well, maybe he was out of town. He did have other court cases going, and had been talking about taking a vacation,

Early on April 29 I tried again, and this time nothing picked up; the phone just rang off the hook.

That afternoon I received a call. Carlos had been found dead in his office. (The press reports said in his apartment, but the address was that of his office; it was on the third floor of an office building, and had no living quarters.)

Perhaps his time was up. He was only 42, and looked in excellent shape (I bet he worked out), but he did have a Type-A personality. Whatever it was, the man most dangerous to a very powerful agency, and scores of its agents, had been removed from the scene.

The next day the House Government Reform Committee was quickly distancing itself from its own expert, a man who had been briefing it for months, had submitted his preliminary report a few weeks before, and had been briefing its staffs within the past two weeks.

An AP story quoted Committee staff as saying that "Ghigliotti's work for the committee ended some time ago." Rumors were quietly placed that he was "controversial" and had been "fired by the Committee."

Let me set the record straight: I owe it to that honest man. In my phone log I have two calls from him, sometime between 3/18 and 3/23 (I often overlook writing in the new day). These are about 3-4 weeks before his death:

Notes on first call:

Kevin Binger, chief of staff to Burton, wanted report rewritten his way. Carlos needed stuff from locker (presumably Rangers' evidence locker or locker in custody of court) and committee refused to send him (Carlos) down there. [Again, the indication is that he's not fully broken off relations.].

Notes on second call:

Shots from side of tank. He had been showing the FLIR of a tank hatch opening and a guy coming out of the CEV to the Demo staff members; they agreed that the hatch opened but some didn't agree they could see the person. They knew by name the person under that hatch. Guy dismounts and shoots at a Davidian. Something about audio track at another point says tank is in pursuit of an unidentified subject. [Word unclear, begins with C, likely "Congress"] only wanted his anomaly list [i.e., his list of thermal anomalies, rather than a study of each]. Over a hundred of those. Something about four gunshots. He suggested Demos might pay for analysis of the rest. Demos unaware. [As I recall, he said the minority staff had been kept apprised only of the major developments, and were surprised to learn of all the details.]

I had placed high hopes on the Congressional inquiry, but my trust level is rapidly declining.

Carlos had said that the Committee would let it all out eventually, that they were just keeping a distance from him in the press reports until that time.

But now he's dead, and the Committee is claiming falsely that he was fired and had not worked for them for some time. But for his fax, and a phone log, the story might pass muster and his discoveries be buried with him.

I'm beginning to wonder if Carlos wasn't a bit too trusting of his employers. There are ways to silence Congressional oversight.

J. Edgar Hoover was a master of that ... it was amazing what a few files on the pecadillos of congressmen could do. And so far, for all the thousands of pages of documentation the Committee has gotten -- for the secrets they had uncovered, that Carlos takes to his grave, but considered so damning of the agencies that it might inspire another Oklahoma City -- not one word has been revealed to the public, and no hearings are scheduled.

Nobody ever said that politics is conducive to honor. But Carlos deserved better -- he was a genuinely honorable man.

Freeper roughrider 4/30/00 "…….Camouflaged agents dismounting from the rear doors of tanks or infantry fighting vehicles are visible in several of the conventional videos of the last assault, including "Incident at Waco," one of the first, which was a starting point for "Rules of Engagement." Also, FBI overall leader, Jeffrey Jamar, told the media that HRT troops actually entered the tunnel and buried bus, allegedly looking for the children, and claiming the HRT troops found the air fresh down there. Unfortunately, Jamar's statements to the media, and I believe to Congress, are contradicted by other testimony:

1. HRT soldier and tank driver, Roger Craig, testified under oath at the Branch Davidian trial that he was ordered to cave in part of the building on top of the only interior entrance to the tunnel. Craig testified that he did this, and successfully blocked all access to the tunnel.

2. The FBI admits that at least two incendiary CS grenades were fired by launchers at the top of the tornado shelter that is at the end of the tunnel. That they may actually have fired more should be of no surprise, as one of the spent hulls was found at the opposite end of the building. Jamar's testimony suggests the FBI took a "hands off" strategy with the tunnel, but with these two incidents, and the HRT radio traffic that day, we know the tunnel was a target, and the FBI did not want anyone fleeing into the tunnel. If any got there, they were to be gassed……"

Freeper Jeff Head 4/30/00 "…..So, here in the last 6-8 weeks we've had the Sheriff and both FLIR experts die……."

Freeper joanie-f 4/30/00 "… He'd mentioned that the guy with Infraspection Institute, who had analyzed the FLIR for 60 Minutes back in '95 or '96, and found FBI gunshots and shooters on it, had been terrified. In fact, he'd sent copies of the tape to Carlos and to several others in the IR field, with notes saying "If anything happens to me, you'll know why." (The same guy later called me, said he didn't want his name used, that "there are too many people already in their graves over this." I wrote him off as him being rather nervous.)…….. "

Freeper Abundy 4/30/00 "…..ME issue - unless things have changed, all autopsies (sp) are preformed by the medical examiner in Baltimore. If you have a stiff in Cumberland it goes to Baltimore for the autopsy. Strange, but true. ….."

Neal Knox 5/1/00 "…….Until less than a month before he died, Ghigliotti was the infrared (FLIR) expert examining the FBI's Waco tape for Chairman Dan Burton's House Government Reform Committee. Last October he told the Washington Post that "The gunfire from the ground is there, without a doubt." He had told private Waco researcher Dave Hardy much more -- and shown him a first-generation version of the FBI FLIR video shot the day of the final fire. That verson showed shots and a visible bullet trace, Hardy said, and the Branch Davidian who the shot had missed. Ghigliotti had also spotted someone taking a firing stance who had been filmed by a long-range commercial television video -- at the time and spot where the FBI FLIR tape showed a gun flash. ……….. Hardy, a meticulous researcher whom I've known over 25 years, had been provided a lot of information by Ghigliotti including the preliminary report he gave the Burton committee last month -- when he gave a final briefing to both the Republican and Democrat staffs. That was apparently the only summary of Ghigliotti's findings outside the committee. Dave wrote himself an insurance policy earlier tonight by posting a lengthy article on NewsMax.com based on information Ghigliotti had given him. I have reason to believe that Dave has also given a copy of Ghigliotti's preliminary report to certain members of the press. ……"

Neal Knox 5/1/00 "…….By the way, immediately after the "reenactment" of the FLIR videotaping last month at Ft. Hood, Ghigliotti told Dave the test was worthless for the helicopter wasn't at the same altitude, the temperature was 20 degrees lower, and certain calibration tests had not been done. He was dead before the American-owned British aerospace firm that did the tests told Judge Walter Smith that the apparent gunflashes seen on the FBI FLIR were only reflections. ……"

Freeper pjd 5/1/00 "….This summary was posted on NewsMax today:

The following is a summary of conclusions reached by Carlos Ghigliotti, an infrared film expert. Mr. Ghigliotti completed this report as a consultant to the Congress. He determined federal officials had, in fact, fired into the Koresh compound.

Summary of the most important events that occurred on April 19, 1993

A complete analysis of the FLIR videotape (#3) taken between 10:41:57 and 12:16:13 was made using the equipment listed in volume 1.

An electronic grid was placed on the videotape and divided into 4 quadrants. The top left section is quadrant 1 or (Q1). The top right section is quadrant 2 or (Q2). The bottom left section is quadrant 3 or (Q3) and the bottom right section is quadrant 4 or (Q4). A videotape was recorded with this grid pattern and provided.

At 11:16:27 the tank or CEV (combat engineering vehicle) first appears.

At 11:18:40-Q1 the tank starts to demolish the rear wall of the gym. This continues on until 12:09:02-Q3 when the tank leaves the rear area of the gym. There were a total of 19 instances that the tank penetrated the gym.

At 11:23:02-Q3 & Q4 the tank has penetrated the gym for the 6th time.

At 11:23:23 the tank is completely inside the gym.

At 11:24:17-Q2 two unknown subjects appear from underneath the tank.

Between 11:24:30:16-Q2 and 11:24:36-Q1 the unknown subjects shoot into the hole made by the tank in the gym wall.

Between 11:24:50-Q4 and 11:25:04 there is a response in the form of gunfire from the inside of the gym directed at the 2 unknown subjects.

At 11:26:04-Q2 the tank breaks through the front wall of the gym.

Between 11:26:13-Q1 and 11:26:27-Q1 additional gunfire comes out of the gym directed at the 2 unknown subjects. This gunfire has pinned down the 2 unknown subjects on the ground.

At 11:26:26-Q1 the tank backs over the 2 unknown subjects. The approximate height of the tank is 20 inches and 6 feet in width between the tracks.

At 11:26:39-Q4 one of the 2 unknown subjects is clearly visible exiting out the hole in the front wall of the gym the tank previously made. The unknown subject turns to the right into the courtyard.

Between 11:28:04-Q1 and 11:28:14:04-Q4 there is gunfire emitting from the position the unknown subject was seen at 11:26:39-Q4 (the courtyard) the direction of this gunfire is into the structure.

Between 11:28:18-Q4 and 11:28:22-Q4 there is a response of gunfire coming out of the structure.

Between 11:30:09-Q4 and 11:30:15-Q4 there is gunfire from the same area in the courtyard directed into the structure.

At 11:33:51-Q4 there is gunfire between the gym wall and the swimming pool. The direction of this gunfire is into the structure (possibly unknown subject #2) since the infrared signature from this weapon is different from the rounds fired in the courtyard.

At 11:34:32-Q4 there is one gunshot directed at the unknown subject on 11:34:33-Q3 that is running and hiding between the gym and the swimming pool.

Between 11:34:33-Q3 and 11:34:34-Q3 unknown subject is being shot at.

Between 11:34:45-Q4 and 11:38:31-Q3 there is gunfire coming out of the structure.

Between 11:38:34-Q3 and 11:38:36-Q3 an unknown subject is seen hiding in front of the tank.

At 11:43:34-Q4 is the 3rd time the tank enters the front middle section of the structure. This is the side facing the cameras from the media. The tank enters the front part of the structure on numerous occasions and is fired upon every time it enters the structure.

Between 11:43:36-Q4 and 11:59:03-Q3 there is gunfire from the second floor front side directed at the tank.

At 12:03:59-Q2 unknown subject appears next to the tank in the rear of the structure.

At 12:05:17-Q2 1st time the tank inserts the boom into the corner of the front tower.

At 12:07:42-Q4 the fire is now visible in the infrared spectrum coming out from the window of the second story tower.

At 12:08:12-Q4 unknown subject comes out of the tank and shows up at 12:08:51-Q3 shooting at the other unknown subject that appears at 12:08:34-Q4.

Between 12:08:31-Q4 and 12:08:32-Q3 a cluster of thermal anomalies appear at the corner of the gym.

Between 12:08:34-Q4 and 12:08:44-Q4 unknown subject runs from the area where the thermal anomalies are. The subject hops over the rubble and hides in the gym.

Between 12:08:51-Q3 and 12:08:52-Q3 there is automatic gunfire into the area where the unknown subject at 12:08:44-Q4 was hiding.

12:09:02-Q3 rear tank leaves the area.

Between 12:10:41-Q3 and 12:11:15-Q1 numerous rounds of gunfire are shot from the center of the courtyard and all are directed into the structure.

No additional events of importance are viewable due to the fire overloading the detector on the FLIR.

CONCLUSIONS:

No additional gunfire is detectable on the videotape because the infrared detector on the FLIR overloaded with the infrared energy emitted by the fire. The gunfire did continue on. There is visible video evidence taken by the media to support this and there is gunfire recorded on the audio track of the aerial FLIR tape #4 taken by the same aircraft.

Total number of gunfire shots coming out of the structure 69

Total number of gunfire shots going into the structure* 57

Total number of flash devices 1 cluster

SUB TOTAL 127

Total number of times the tanks penetrated into the structure** 33

Total number of times the tanks penetrated thru the structure 1

TOTAL NUMBER OF EVENTS 161

· *THERE ARE 3 THERMAL FLASHES WHERE THE WEAPON USED, HAD A POSSIBLE FLASH SUPPRESSOR DEVICE INSTALLED, THEY OCCURRED AT 11:24:31:28, 11:24:35:10 AND 11:28:14:13. THEREFORE THE POSSIBILITY EXISTS THAT MORE THAN ONE ROUND OF AMMUNITION WAS FIRED DURING EACH OF THE 3 EVENTS. ALTHOUGH ONLY ONE ROUND OF AMMUNITION WAS USED AS THE AMOUNT FIRED FOR THIS LIST. · **AFTER REVIEWING THE VIDEOTAPE NUMEROUS TIMES. THE FOLLOWING PATTERN APPEARED, WITH ONLY A FEW EXCEPTIONS. THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS SHOT AT THE TANKS, ONLY AFTER THE TANKS PENETRATED THE STRUCTURE. TOTAL NUMBER OF TIMES, UNKNOWN SUBJECTS APPEAR ON THE FLIR VIDEOTAPE. 7

TOTAL NUMBER OF EVENTS THAT OCCURRED BETWEEN 10:41:57 AND 12:16:13 (FLIR TAPE #3) 198

Freeper GluteusMax 5/1/00 "…….The author of Waco: Rules of Engagement and Waco: A New Revelation was on the radio (Robby Noel's show) this morning disclosing that the other 2 FLIR experts had near misses with death the same week that this man was killed. (Well, the police are treating it as a homicide anyway. Any bets on a 'natural cause' being determined for this 42 year old FLIR expert?) One man inexplicably developed a lethal level of blood poisoning and spent 10 days in the hospital, and the other one had a 'stroke' and is still hospitalized, although there is hope he will be well enough to testify in 2 months. ……"

Freeper d14truth 5/2/00 "…."A November 1, 1999 New Yorker article on Waco reports: "Allard, a former physics professor, ran a bit of the video for Danforth, stopped to explain the basics of thermal imagery, and then returned to the scene of what he believes is a pitched gun battle between Davidians and F.B.I. agents firing automatic weapons. "I can look at students, and I can tell you if they're paying attention," Allard says. "The Danforth people were totally absorbed." Of one scene in the video, he says, "There's no question that's a full gun battle." As he recalls it, "What I did with the Danforth people is, I said to them, 'Look, why don't you count the fire your-self? I played the tapes, frame by frame. And as you play them frame by frame the people say, 'I see one, two, three, four. . . I see five! No, I think there's four, run it back? And pretty soon they say, 'Yeah, there's five shots from there, and there's one shot from the other side." It is probably not good news for the F.B.I. that Danforth and his staff have been counting the F.B.I.'s putative automatic-gunfire shots at Waco... However, an independent specialist in thermal imaging, Carlos Ghigliotti, viewed the F.B.I.'s FUR tapes at F.B.I. headquarters, and concluded that shots had been fired. If the government is forced to confess another prevarication, the conspiracy fires will certainly flame higher." ….."

Dallas Morning News 5/2/00 Lee Hancock "…..The lead lawyer in the Branch Davidians' wrongful death lawsuit asked a federal judge Monday to impound all information relating to the 1993 siege of the sect's compound from a Washington-area office where an infrared expert was found dead last week. Mike Caddell of Houston said he sought emergency intervention from the court in Waco to ensure that all significant information was preserved from the Laurel, Md., office and home of Carlos Ghigliotti. Police were still investigating the cause of Mr. Ghigliotti's death Monday……. Judge Smith told both sides in the case that the British firm, Vector Data Research, would submit its final report on May 8 and would provide "conclusive evidence" linking each flash to a specific cause, such as sunlight reflecting off broken glass. ……. But Mr. Caddell and other lawyers representing surviving Branch Davidians and families of those who died have questioned Vector's conclusions, particularly the finding that no people were visible on the infrared video until well after the sect's compound began burning. ……"

Dallas Morning News 5/2/00 Lee Hancock "…..Mr. Caddell and another lawyer, David T. Hardy of Tucson, Ariz., said Mr. Ghigliotti had recently shown each of them repeated examples of what he said were images of people visible in the vicinity of some of the unexplained flashes that appeared on the film in the hour before the fire. Mr. Caddell wrote Mr. Danforth's office on April 17 and asked investigators to interview Mr. Ghigliotti, saying that the analyst had shown him one particularly compelling image on the video in which the hatch of an FBI armored vehicle "clearly opens, and it appears someone emerges from that tank." Mr. Caddell's letter stated that image appeared as the compound began burning and only seconds before a series of flashes appeared near the same armored vehicle. ……. "I have been trying to reach him for the last few days, but he is apparently out of town," the April 17 letter stated. "In any event, his work is by far the most impressive I have seen in terms of analyzing the April 19 . . . [videotape], and I do not think you can fully appreciate his work unless you visit his lab and spend several hours with him reviewing key points." Mr. Caddell also told the court last month that he planned to hire Mr. Ghigliotti to replace his principal infrared expert, who recently suffered a stroke. ……"

Dallas Morning News 5/2/00 Lee Hancock "….."Mr. Ghigliotti's work product on this issue is extremely important to plaintiffs and to the court's analysis and conclusions," Mr. Caddell's Monday motion stated. "Accordingly, plaintiffs seek an order from the court preserving the completeness and integrity of that work product. Without such an order, plaintiffs have no assurances that third parties will not lose, damage or destroy (innocently or intentionally) irreplaceable work product by Mr. Ghigliotti."……"

WorldNetDaily 5/3/00 Sarah Foster "…..The mysterious death of a key figure in the ongoing Waco congressional investigation may not have been from natural causes, according to attorney David T. Hardy, who fears that his friend Carlos Ghigliotti, owner of Infrared Technology, may have been the victim of foul play. ...... "It's highly suspicious," says Hardy, commenting on the circumstances surrounding the death of the infrared expert, whose badly decomposed body was discovered Friday at 1:30 p.m., seated at his desk in his laboratory-office in Laurel, Md. Ghigliotti had not been seen nor heard from for several weeks……."

WorldNetDaily 5/3/00 Sarah Foster "…..As soon as he learned of the death, Hardy -- who since 1995 has been conducting his own investigations into the Waco issue -- wrote a tribute to his friend which he titled, "Memorial to an Honest Man," and posted it on his own website that deals with Waco. ……..In his tribute, Hardy discussed several of Ghigliotti's observations and discoveries that he had uncovered -- such as what he thought of the recent re-creation designed to test the thesis that the FLIR footage showed powerful evidence of gunshots being poured into the complex. ……."Pure junk," is what Ghigliotti thought about the re-creation tape, according to Hardy. "The aircraft wasn't even at the right altitude, they didn't have the right procedures to verify that the sensor was functioning comparable to the one of 4/19, etc.," Hardy wrote. …………."The best thing that could be done with any resulting tape (and this is BEFORE the results were known) was to drop it in the waste can. Whether it showed gunshots or did not, it'd be useless for proving anything, whether for the Davidians or the FBI."……"

WorldNetDaily 5/3/00 Sarah Foster "…..In an exclusive interview with WorldNetDaily, Hardy said he first talked to Ghigliotti in 1996, by phone, but not until December 1998, during a trip to Washington, D.C., did the two men meet face to face. Hardy said he was most impressed with the office and laboratory of Infrared Technologies, which were two adjoining rooms on the third floor of an office building. In the first room were desks and worktables. The laboratory was in the second, "with some really impressive equipment -- sophisticated computers, four large monitors, Super VHS decks," Hardy recalled. ……. If the death was not of natural causes, what would be the motive? WorldNetDaily asked. ……. Hardy's answer: "I think he may have known too much. Carlos told me he had discovered things that were much, much worse than anything that had yet come out." ……"

WorldNetDaily 5/3/00 Sarah Foster "…..This past December, Hardy visited Infrared Technology a second time, and Ghigliotti showed him some of the work he was doing. …….. "Carlos wouldn't tell me everything," Hardy said, "but he did give me a 'little tidbit' as he called it. He told me the whole operation [at Waco] from the start of the siege to the end was funded out of the drug forfeiture monies that are supposed to be used only in the war on drugs. "He said not only the ATF raid -- the whole siege, most of it the FBI funded out of the drug war monies. Now those are special funds. He told me he had a lot of documentation showing the flow of money - which explains the new uniforms and new equipment the agents had at the start of the raid. "I don't know why they [the committee] put him onto this issue," Hardy continued, "but apparently he was working on it." He said Ghigliotti -- who was standing by his desk as he talked -- placed his hand on a "thick pile of manuals and memoranda" to indicate the documentation he had assembled on this most recent assignment. He told Hardy, "All the standards for when you're allowed to use that money are laid down in writing, and they [the government agencies] violated all of the standards to get at the money. And the committee knows it." "So basically, Carlos really had them not only for attempted murder, perjury, and a few other things -- he also got them for embezzlement [of designated funds]," Hardy observed, adding he hoped the committee would continue to investigate that angle. Hardy told WorldNetDaily he did not know what happened to the various documents Ghigliotti had compiled for his investigation into the funding of the raid and siege. "The last I saw of them they were sitting on his desk in his office," he said. ……"

WorldNetDaily 5/3/00 Sarah Foster "………. Hardy explained: "There were several media video tapes made through gigantic telephoto lenses, but from one, two or three miles away. Carlos could import video into his computers; he had actually invented a system himself for showing on one frame the regular video and the FLIR. And then if you can coordinate them by time, by seeing some event that shows up on both, you can play both images side-by-side. What he'd done was, he got to a point where watching them side-by-side you can see in regular video a side view of a man shouldering a weapon. And on the FLIR at the same position, a flash of a gunshot. ………. "When I heard that I just cried, OK. End of game. The game is over," said Hardy. "I told him, it's all over. What's the debate over whether these are gunshots, if you have a man shouldering a rifle at the same time a flash is seen?" Hardy said he does not know where the tape is now. …….. Hardy also isn't certain he's seen the same tape, but he did see one it could have been when he visited Ghigliotti in December. In any case, the one he watched was highly incriminating, he said. ...... "He showed me a regular video image of an FBI guy shouldering a gun," said Hardy. "Now, I'm not sure it's the same image, but you could see this guy, he was shooting at shallow angle to the ground, so you see bushes and then some parked tanks. This is after the fire has begun. And you see FBI guys on the far side of the tanks. It's a blurry image, and I had seen it before and never made anything out of it. I mean it just looked like lousy video. ………….. "Carlos asked if I had seen this before, and I said, 'Yeah.' And he said, 'I'll show you something I bet you didn't.' Carlos had a hell of an eye. He points to one of the men and says, 'Watch that man and tell me what he's doing.' And by focusing on one man I could see he takes a shooting stance, a stance of a man shouldering a rifle. You can't really see the rifle, but there's no question about the stance. Then he turns and realizes the media cameras can see him. You can't see the face, but you can see the dark helmet suddenly turn to all flesh color and you can see his shoulders turn toward you. "Then there's about half a second where obviously what goes through his mind is, Oh, no! He ducks down behind the tank. The reaction is unmistakable. Oh, no! Duck. And he squats down in front of the tank. That may be the image he was talking about that he could link by time." ……."

WorldNetDaily 5/3/00 Sarah Foster "…..Hardy said he was in contact with Ghigliotti until March 18, and added that Ghigliotti considered his work with the House Government Reform Committee completed and had sent a preliminary report summarizing his findings. Ghigliotti faxed Hardy the summary, and Hardy in turn provided it to WorldNetDaily. (Read the report page 1, page 2, page 3) ……….. The summary gives a breakdown of the final hour of the siege, from 11:16 a.m. to 12:11 p.m., complete with the number of gunshots fired by both sides. According to Ghigliotti, the Davidians did return fire, but only when the tanks penetrated the complex, which happened 34 times. ….."I had promised to keep everything Carlos told me confidential," said Hardy. "But I feel I'm released from that promise."……"

APBnews.com 5/2/00 Amy Worden "……Attorneys representing surviving Branch Davidians in their wrongful death lawsuit against the U.S. government have asked a federal judge to impound all materials related to the Waco siege from the office and home of an expert witness found dead here last week. ……Police found the decomposing body of Carlos Ghigliotti, a 42-year-old infrared-technology expert, in his Washington-area office Friday. The building's managers had asked police to investigate after not seeing him for several weeks. …….. Police said there was no evidence of a break-in, struggle or any other foul play. ……… "We are investigating it as an unintended death, that is, a deceased person with no immediately apparent cause of death," said Lt. Fred Carmen of the Laurel Police Department. …..Officials with the medical examiner's office in Baltimore said the autopsy was not yet complete. Carmen said the results could be in as early as next week. …….."

APBnews.com 5/2/00 Amy Worden "……Ghigliotti was hired last year as an independent expert by the House Government Reform Committee to analyze controversial videotapes of the 1993 raid showing unidentified flashes inside the Branch Davidian compound. Ghigliotti's conclusion that the flashes were bursts from government agents' weapons supported the plaintiffs' contention that the Branch Davidians were fired upon during the raid. ………. Hardy said Branch Davidian attorney Michael Cardell was planning to hire Ghigliotti as his new infrared technology expert after the first one suffered a stroke in March. Hardy said Ghigliotti's death hurts the plaintiffs' case. "His death is quite damaging," Hardy said. "He had not, as far as I know, submitted a final report, only his preliminary report that does not give all the details. Now new experts are going to have to reconstruct his work based on his outline and what's in his office. So much of that work was his eye, without him telling you what was there." ….."

The Libertarian Enterprise Weekly 4/29/00 John Taylor, Editor "….Let me say this as preface: I have corresponded with David Hardy, and believe him to be honorable and honest. The material below is so shocking and explosive in nature that the first inclination is to sit on it and wait, to see if it is as it appears. ...... But freedom and liberty are too important for us to continue to be always prudent. So, against better editorial judgment (trust, but verify), I am forwarding this information just as received, edited only for formatting purposes. Please read it carefully, and realize that, as powerful as it may be, it is so if and only if true. ...... Please read this material closely. Please do not act irrationally. Please remember that we are unlike our enemies only as long as we remain on the moral high ground……."


Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 15:09:47 -0700
From: Phil Murphy [address deleted -- direct inquiries to TLE]
Subject: The Sum of All Fears
[addressees deleted]

Please read this.

Don't skim through it or skip to the end.

This is the most important e-mail you've ever received. Period.

Something has happened.

David T. Hardy, one of the lead investigating attorneys in the Waco case, sent this last night. I waited until I received his okay for me to send it out far and wide today, April 29, 2000. In Dave's words (which will again appear at the end of his original, unedited post below), "As far as you want, and feel free to name me as the source. I figure this needs to be real public."

Dave Hardy is a man of honor and is enormously well-respected throughout the US legal community. He presented the brief that led to the Brady Law being overturned before the United States Supreme Court. I would trust him with my life. I think I just have.

The information contained herein is vitally important, but it also serves as a particularly terrifying double-edged sword. I am uncomfortable about this hitting the Net. There are, as many of you well know, a whole lot of nut cases out there who will be "set off" when they read this, but I'm confident that the more people who know this information -- from the source and not second hand -- the better. Although I will contact certain "friendlies" (like an insider at FOX News) and local media types who know Dave and me personally, I wouldn't suggest that you just "drop this off at the news desk" somewhere and expect anything positive to happen. There's not many editors or news directors who would ever want this to go out.

Remember...

Freedom is a scary thing to many people. The alternative scares me far worse.

Everything which follows my e-signature is exactly as I received it; as Dave's typed it. I have only dropped his e-mail address from the header to avoid having him suffer through the tens of thousands of incoming e-mails that will flood in as a result of this post. I also respectfully ask that you not flood my mailbox in a similar fashion.

Please, for those of you now reading this with six or seven "forwarding arrows" attached to its contents, take on the responsibility of cleaning up the post before sending it on. Thank you.

Very truly yours,

Phil Murphy

****************************
Brassroots, Inc.
……..


Envelope-to: [address deleted]
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:27:47 -0700
From: (David Hardy)
Subject: Memorial to an honest man

What follows is something I have not been able to reveal prior to this point. As I mention at the end, I am now released from my promise of secrecy……..


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
David Hardy's reply message to Phil Murphy's inquiry:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>To put it mildly: Holy shit.
>
>Dave, may I pass this out -- completely unedited -- far and wide?
>
>I'm speechless.

As far as you want, and feel free to name me as the source. I figure this needs to be real public.

Police reports indicate he was 42 yrs old. Autopsy is being done in Baltimore. He is said to have been found dead in his apt., but the address given is that of his office, on 3d floor of an office bldg (I've been there).


[Here is the text of another forward, this time from Ian Goddard. Much of the material is the same; where duplicate information appears, I have edited it out and substituted an indication [...] of its removal. Other than duplicate information and minor formatting, the text is exactly as received. -- ed.]


Subject: WACO: Dead Analyst Insights
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 13:59:15 -0400
From: Ian Goddard [address deleted]

I'd previously spoken to Dr Edward Allard, who almost died of a heart attack the week before the FLIR test, the same week that another witness for the plaintiffs suddenly died of a heart attack. When I called Allard yesterday, I was told that he can no longer talk about Waco. Since Allard's disabling stroke, the attorney's for the plaintiffs have been looking for another FLIR expert and were going to sign on Carlos Ghigliotti, but unfortunately he was just found dead yesterday. Looks like there getting knocked off, one by one.

The following is a message from Attorney David Hardy, who knew Carlos Ghigliotti. In it he reveals not only critical insight into Ghigliotti's work and what he knew, but also new details about the gunfight around the back of Mount Carmel that Ghigliotti's work, with the best FLIR-video copy and equipment, had uncovered:

Attorney David T. Hardy writes:

[...]

Subj: Further info on FLIR

In August, 1999, Dan Gifford asked me to send an affidavit regarding a conversation I'd had back in 1997. I found it on my word processor, and it is set out below.

Background: after the gunshots on the FLIR were revealed by Gordon Novel (a really wild character, BTW), and confirmed by Dr. Allard, Gordon took the tape to Sixty Minutes. [As I recall, he then had a grudge against Mike McNulty, and figured to break the story on his own.]. Sixty Minutes sent the tape out for a second opinion, to a firm called Infraspection, in Vermont, I seem to remember. Infraspection confirmed that they were gunshots, and that they could see people moving around as well. (Sixty Minutes killed the story nonetheless.)

Afterward, Infraspection refused to publicly confirm its findings. Apparently it got word that its letters making the findings, then refusing to confirm them because of potential negative consequences to the firm (I think those were its words), were going to be used in the original "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." For some reason -- I think they couldn't find phone no's for McNulty or Gifford -- they called me. The guy who called was so nervous you could hear it in his voice, and said something to the effect that "there are too many people in their grave already over this." (I believe he was referring to Wm. Colby, whom Gordon said had given him the FLIR gunshot info, and who had been found dead just before this conversation.)

Incidentally, Carlos mentioned to me in one of our last conversations that the fellow had been so frightened that he made a stack of copies of the FLIR and mailed them to a bunch of fellow analysts, including Carlos, with notes reading to the effect of "If anything happens to me, you'll know why." Carlos regarded this with detachment or even a bit of amusement.

Anyway, here's the affidavit:

David T. Hardy, being first duly sworn, deposes and says:

1. My name is David T. Hardy. I am an attorney practicing law in Tucson, Arizona.

2. In 1997, I was involved in a Freedom of Information Act suit relating to the incident at Waco. I was accordingly in touch with Dan Gifford, who was working on a documentary on the subject, and with several other persons including an investigator named Gordon Novel. I knew that the documentary included infrared ["FLIR"] footage, and that the footage had been analyzed by an Infraspection Institute, which had been retained by a television network.

3. In early 1997, I was called by a Craig Kelch, of Infraspection Institute. My independent recollection is that Mr. Kelch had been trying to contract Dan Gifford in connection with the documentary, said that he had not been able to contract him, and had in some manner gotten my name and number. I recall that his tone was very anxious, and that he was quite upset that his business was going to be mentioned in the documentary. I recall he said something to the effect that he did not want his company name used, and also he did not want to be involved, for some reason relating to personal fear.

3. I have located my phone log of the conversation. My notes indicate it took place between February 28 and March 3, 1999. My notes are as follows [indecipherable words are bracketed, as are completions of abbreviations]:

Kelch
Cindy Bathsky -- CBS 60 min. & Novel
Wanted no part of this -- no trust [them or this] --
Wash. Post -- my co[mpany] name -- 5th Estate
Need contact me + Gifford
If corporate name -- gonna have problem
No want to be involved in the [the or this] [ ]
Too many end in grave ........."

 

Washington Post 4/18/97 Richard Leiby Jim McGee "….."First, The Post mailed copies of the FLIR tape -- those portions obtained from court filings -- to people with infrared and weapons experience. After the FBI gave us a one-hour excerpt (but not the whole tape), we showed that to local defense contractors who specialize in interpreting FLIR. And we took the tape to the military's top scientists. In all, 12 examiners offered opinions. These days, infrared analysts are fairly easy to find. Once an expensive military technology, FLIR is now widely used in private industry and law enforcement -- especially in drug cases where infrared cameras are used to locate indoor marijuana growers' hot lamps and methamphetamine labs. Four of the analysts contacted by The Post, who have extensive military and weapons experience, were convinced that they saw bursts on the tape indicative of gunfire going into the compound. "The gunfire signatures are real," said Joseph Horn, an El Paso, Tex., consultant on firearms evidence, who wrote a letter pointing out five incidents that Allard had also deemed gunfire. But where were the shooters? "It bothered me that I wasn't able to see their bodies," said Horn, a former Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy. "But the patterns of the firing were there." ……."

Washington Post 4/18/97 Richard Leiby Jim McGee "….."Ron Smith, who runs a business in Tempe, Ariz., supplying machine guns to law-enforcement and military agencies, said he counted seven separate instances of automatic weapons fire on the tape -- also directed at the buildings. He believes the alleged shooters could have been wearing FLIR-resistant camouflage. …….. Tom Simpson is a computer imaging specialist in Camarillo, Calif., who once trained military officials on how to read FLIR. Here's his report on the Waco tape: "We observed no less than 60 of what can only be explained as gunfire energy bursts . . . all directed at the compound. We took great pains to explain these events in another fashion . . . but were unable to find that explanation."

Houston Chroncile 5/6/00 Michelle Malkin "…….Elian Gonzalez groupies continue to call the Easter-weekend raid in Miami "another Waco." These people need a Texas-sized kick in the rear. There is only one Waco. It's a travesty to compare the government's bloodless, three-minute retrieval of one little Cuban boy to the 51-day federal siege, capped by a fatal inferno, which claimed the lives of 21 innocent children and 59 adults on their native soil……. One man who might have shed light on the lingering question of gunfire at Waco was Carlos Ghigliotti. Ghigliotti ran a Maryland-based firm called Infrared Technologies Corp., which had done extensive work for the FBI. Ghigliotti was, by all accounts, a respected expert in forward-looking infrared (FLIR) imaging and analysis. ...... "

Houston Chroncile 5/6/00 Michelle Malkin "…….Last fall, after studying hundreds of hours of ground-view and overhead FLIR tapes of the Waco raid for the House Government Reform Committee, Ghigliotti concluded that the FBI had fired shots in the direction of the Branch Davidian compound during the final assault on April 19, 1993. The findings echo those of another prominent thermal-imaging expert: Edward Allard, a former Defense Department physicist, who designed the FLIR equipment used by the FBI, and analyzed Waco footage for the groundbreaking documentary Waco: The Rules of Engagement….. The FBI continues to deny categorically that any agent fired any shots that day. But now, Carlos Ghigliotti cannot tell the public about his follow-up research refuting the government's claims. Carlos Ghigliotti is dead...."

Houston Chroncile 5/6/00 Michelle Malkin "…….. Police statements about Ghigliotti's death have evolved rather strangely. Initially, Officer Jim Collins told the news media: "We're investigating it as a homicide." A few days later, despite not having seen final toxicology and autopsy reports, Collins stressed to me that "there is nothing to indicate foul play was involved." Another spokesman, Lt. Fred Carmen of the Laurel Police Department, said: "We are investigating it as an unintended death, that is, a deceased person with no immediately apparent cause of death." …….. Close followers of the Waco case are understandably suspicious. And why shouldn't they be? Law-enforcement officials have repeatedly lied, stonewalled and suppressed critical information on all aspects of the Waco case over the past seven years: They lodged bogus charges of child abuse against Branch Davidians. They denied using incendiary devices during the raid -- only to acknowledge having fired at least two flammable tear-gas canisters into the compound. They "misplaced" audio recordings from infrared footage that demonstrated official government orders to use pyrotechnics. They confiscated -- then "lost" -- vital autopsy evidence from the Tarrant County, Texas, coroner's office. ......And now, they want us to believe that what Ghigliotti and Allard separately concluded were gunshots were merely flashes of sunlight and reflections of broken window glass. ……"

CARLOS GHIGLIOTTI

MOUNTAIN MEDIA 5/7/00 Vin Suprynowicz "……. The lead lawyer in the Branch Davidians' wrongful death lawsuit against the federal government Monday asked a federal judge to impound all information relating to the 1993 Mount Carmel siege from a Washington-area office where a government infrared expert was found dead last week, reports Lee Hancock in The Dallas Morning News……… Attorney Mike Caddell of Houston said he sought emergency intervention from the court to ensure all significant information was preserved from the Laurel, Md., office and home of Carlos Ghigliotti…….."

MOUNTAIN MEDIA 5/7/00 Vin Suprynowicz "……. Attorney Caddell had written to the office of former Sen. John Danforth, now conducting an independent investigation into the Waco holocaust, on April 17, asking investigators to interview Mr. Ghigliotti, saying the analyst had shown him one particularly compelling image on the video in which the hatch of an FBI armored vehicle "clearly opens, and it appears someone emerges from that tank." Mr. Caddell's letter states that image appeared as the compound began burning and only seconds before a series of flashes appeared near the same armored vehicle…….. "I have been trying to reach him for the last few days, but he is apparently out of town," the April 17 letter to Danforth stated. "In any event, his work is by far the most impressive I have seen in terms of analyzing the April 19 (1993 videotape), and I do not think you can fully appreciate his work unless you visit his lab and spend several hours with him reviewing key points."……."

MOUNTAIN MEDIA 5/7/00 Vin Suprynowicz "……. Attorney Caddell had also told the court last month that he planned to hire Mr. Ghigliotti to replace his principal infrared expert, Dr. Edward Allard, who suffered a stroke in March. "Mr. Ghigliotti's work product on this issue is extremely important to plaintiffs and to the court's analysis and conclusions," Caddell's Monday motion stated………"

MOUNTAIN MEDIA 5/7/00 Vin Suprynowicz "……. But Mark Corallo, a spokesman for the congressional committee chaired by Rep. Dan Burton, R-Ind., told police shortly after Ghigliotti's body was found that the analyst's work for the committee ended "some time ago." That sounded odd, so I decided to check with Tucson attorney David T. Hardy, who retired recently after a decade as headquarters agency attorney for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in Washington, D.C.-a fellow whose credentials include letters of commendation for his "exceptional litigation support" from such anti-government extremists as the assistant attorney general of the United States (home page, indirect.com/www/dhardy/waco.html.)………. Attorney Hardy now posts a long description of Ghigliotti's work at his own and numerous other web sites (including http://www.webleyweb.com/tle/index.html.) Among other things, he describes how "Through the committee, Carlos was able to obtain a remarkable copy of the FLIR, a quantum leap above what anyone else possessed."………

On that high-quality tape, Ghigliotti catalogued "nearly 200 suspected gunshots, and had done the work necessary to verify that many of these were genuine. Understand that his idea of 'verify' wasn't just to see the image. He wanted to find the shooters, as well, and to plot their movement from one flash location to another. And he wanted to correlate the FLIR images to every possible ordinary video image, to see if he could link up what the media filmed from the side with what the FLIR registered from overhead. He was really hot on getting some footage shot by DPS from a site behind the building, so that he could tie that in as well. This man was thorough-no rushing to judgment. ... "He knew this was no normal case. As he once said, the Waco FLIR was probably going to be the next Zapruder film, and he wasn't going to say something that he couldn't prove against any criticism…….."

MOUNTAIN MEDIA 5/7/00 Vin Suprynowicz "……. "He said that the big problem the Committee seemed to see was the question of how they could get the information out, while at the same time preventing another Oklahoma City type reprisal-it was that shocking. ...I asked Hardy what he thought of the manner of Ghigliotti's death."It's very suspicious, though there's no evidence yet. The guy was only 42, he was in good health when I saw him, reasonably fit. A heart attack in a 42-year-old? It's not impossible, but it's sort of rare……… "There are three computer analysts on the side against the government in this case. The first one, Dr. Ed Allard, collapsed of a stroke in mid-March just before the re-creation test, so he couldn't attend. The second one, who was to be his replacement, a Dr. Siegel, collapsed in late March, unconscious; they diagnosed it as massive blood poisoning. After 10 days in the hospital he gets out. Now Carlos is found dead…….."

MOUNTAIN MEDIA 5/7/00 Vin Suprynowicz "……. I asked Dave Hardy if it was in anyone's power to make Carlos Ghigliotti's work disappear. "He delivered at least a preliminary report to the committee; he was working on the final report as late as early April. He was still working on the final report, so that, if no one has gotten to it, it should be sitting there in the office or on his word processor………. "Mike McNulty told me he had taken Carlos' notes to Dr. Allard, who is apparently in good enough shape to go back and do some FLIR analysis now, and they had found some of the stuff notated by Carlos, including the guy running and shooting through the gym wreckage. So his final report, we may be able to find some truth out of that. ..."

MOUNTAIN MEDIA 5/7/00 Vin Suprynowicz "……. "My last conversation with Carlos, he was trying to get that piece of footage of the helicopter (seen in McNulty's new video "Waco: A New Revelation," firing at a Branch Davidian on the roof of the church just before the fire) which is in the hands of the Texas Department of Public Safety, so he could compare it with the FLIR. He said the committee wouldn't send him to Texas to get it; they wouldn't pay for the plane ticket. So you've got the man who's going to hand you everything on a platter, and they won't spring for the plane ticket………. "What really hacks me off is the committee saying 'He hadn't worked with us for some time.' According to my notes he only had a dispute with them" (the committee declined to give Ghigliotti more time to do a more detailed analysis, and he also complained they were slow in paying him) "in mid-March, after he'd been working with them for seven and a half months. I know he was still briefing them on work he'd already done, as late as March 30."……"

MOUNTAIN MEDIA 5/7/00 Vin Suprynowicz "……. I asked Hardy, the former U.S. government attorney, if he believed Rep. Dan Burton's committee is really trying to get out the truth about the Waco paramilitary action and subsequent massacre. "Up until the events with Carlos I would have said they were trying to bring the facts out, but now I doubt it. You've seen the evidence with your own eyes, he's given you the reports, and now they're claiming, 'Well, he hasn't worked for us for some time'? I start to doubt it."……."

Neal Knox 5/3/00 "…… The Branch Davidians' lead attorney, Mike Caddell, on Monday asked Waco Judge Walter Smith to impound all computers and Waco-related information in the office and laboratory of infrared (FLIR) expert Carlos Ghigliotti, whose badly decomposed body was found Friday. Yesterday, Special Counsel John Danforth joined that request. Ghigliotti had worked for Rep. Burton's Government Reform Committee until late March, shortly before he died. He had found that the FBI and Davidians had engaged in a gun battle, and that the shots and shooters from both sides were visible on the FLIR tape FBI took just before the fatal fire…………. In late April Caddell had told the judge he intended to use Ghigliotti as his FLIR expert in next month's trial, replacing Dr. Edward Allard, who recently had a stroke. …….. On April 17 Caddell asked Special Counsel John Danforth to interview Ghigliotti and spend time in his laboratory reviewing his findings. He stated that he had been trying to reach Ghigliotti but hadn't been able to locate him. He was already dead……."

WorldNetDaily 5/13/00 Sarah Foster "…..… In a brief statement released Thursday, the Laurel Police Department said that according to the autopsy report, the unattended death was of natural causes: specifically, a heart attack brought on by arteriosclerosis, or hardening of the arteries. The press release also stated that the department's investigative services division had terminated further investigation in the matter. …..The decision was not unexpected. ……."

WorldNetDaily 5/13/00 Sarah Foster "….. "I'm not going to quarrel with the ME's [medical examiner's] report," attorney Michael Caddell, of Houston, Texas, told WorldNetDaily….. He had planned to bring Ghigliotti into the case as an expert witness. …… "The death of Carlos is a tremendous loss for our case," Caddell said. "There's no one who had done as much work of the same quality in this area as Carlos." ……When news of Ghigliotti's death was made public, suspicions as to its cause were raised by those involved in ongoing investigations and litigation. The official findings by the Baltimore Medical Examiner's Office have not assuaged these concerns -- not when three other experts in the same field of work as Ghigliotti and who share his conviction that the flashes on the FLIR tapes show gunshots have recently had close calls with death. …."

WorldNetDaily 5/13/00 Sarah Foster "….. There is Edward Allard, who appears in the documentary, "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," produced by Michael McNulty. On March 15 he suffered a stroke, from which he has still not fully recovered. ……"

WorldNetDaily 5/13/00 Sarah Foster "….. Then there is FLIR expert Fred Zegel, a long-time associate of Allard at the Pentagon, who at first disputed his colleague's contention that the flashes were gunfire. But, as he studied the footage, he changed his mind and has agreed to be a witness for the plaintiffs. In April, he reportedly went to a public auction where he collapsed and was rushed to a hospital where he was diagnosed as having blood poisoning. He was in a serious condition for 10 days. ….."

WorldNetDaily 5/13/00 Sarah Foster "….. Lastly, there's Maurice "Mac" Cox, who according to his website on Waco, is a "recently retired mathematician/imagery analyst with 33 years experience in the technical intelligence field." Cox served as a consultant for McNulty's documentary. McNulty told WorldNetDaily Cox had recently had a serious renal [kidney] infection. However, he noted, Cox has had a "renal condition" for a number of years. ……"

WorldNetDaily 5/13/00 Sarah Foster "…..In [McNulty] his words, "I'm thinking about his death and the sequence of circumstances surrounding the illnesses of Fred Zegel, Allard and Mac Cox -- that's a lot of coincidences in a very short period of time -- involving four men who basically were all involved in one narrow issue in one very sensitive lawsuit. That's four of our FLIR experts -- but I've not heard of any of the government experts having problems like this. That's why it's weird. It's just too many coincidences." ……"

WorldNetDaily 5/13/00 Sarah Foster "….. Hardy told WorldNetDaily that upon learning of the autopsy results, he questioned an anesthesiologist who, in turn, backed the findings of the medical examiner. "He told me, 'Hey, it can happen,'" Hardy recalled. "Sure Carlos was young but my friend said death from a heart attack like that is not unknown. Apparently, if you've got bad genes and bad luck, you can be gone before you know it." …….Hardy added that although the anesthesiologist wasn't concerned or surprised about Ghigliotti's death, he was deeply "mystified" upon learning of the sudden illness of Fred Zegel. ...... "He said if you are healthy enough to go to a public auction, how do you suddenly become unconscious from it in the space of an hour. Allard? No problem. He was an older man who had a stroke. Carlos'? Bad luck. Maybe. But I would still like a second opinion," said Hardy. ……."

Waco 93 message board 5/12/00 Freeper Ada Coddington "……. The police department attended Mr. Ghigliotti's autopsy in late April and was aware early on that his death was likely due to massive arterial blockage and resulting heart attack, according to the lieutenant I spoke w/ this afternoon (Wednesday 5/11). He said the damage to the heart and arterial blockage was evident. But he added that both local police and Maryland Medical Examiner's office chose to delay release of any detailed information until toxicology screens were completed - all due to the level of attention of the case, the lieutenant indicated (And forgive me for not listing his name. I have my notes, including his name, at my office. If it becomes an issue, will gladly provide). …..

…..Those toxicology screens turned up evidence of only one chemical susbstance - an over-the-counter flu medication called Thera-Flu, the Lt. said. There was nothing else detected in Mr. Ghigliotti's bloodstream, and the levels of Thera-Flu were consistent w/ recently ingested, normal dose, the Lt. said. Police found an empty packet of Thera-Flu beside the air mattress that Mr. Ghigliotti used for a bed. Mr. Ghigliotti was found in that bed, wearing bedclothes, the Lt. said. The bed was in one of two rooms of his office - a room filled with elaborate equipment for video monitoring, editing and computer evaluation, the Lt. said. All of this machinery was turned off, and it appeared that Mr. Ghigliotti had laid down feeling ill. The Lt. added that a small portion of sandwich was found in his stomach - recently eaten, according to the autopsy exam. More of the sandwich was found on a plate beside the air mattress - some of it eaten by Mr. Ghigliotti's pet cats who lived with him in his office/apartment, the Lt. said. …….

…….Police did confirm that Mr. Ghigliotti did live in the office where he was found, the Lt. said.

……The exact time of death will probably never be known, the Lt. said, but the ME's office has indicated that they believe Mr. Ghigliotti had been dead for about three weeks. A final written autopsy report, detailing the finding of arterial blockage & heart attack, will be delivered to Laurel PD w/i the next week or so. It must be reviewed by the Maryland state's attorney's office before public release, the Lt. said. ……"

Freeper adds "……. Can't wait to hear Maryland state's attorney's office spin on this. Gov. Glendening and Attorney General J. Joseph Curran, Jr. are Dem party footstools for Clinton. We can be sure that DOJ has the final review and edit on this. From AG j. Joseph Curran, Jr.'s web page;
"As Attorney General, I am the chief lawyer in the state.
My office represents the state in all matters in which the state is a party or has an interest."
That is to say the sword and shield of the Democratic Party, much like the KGB. He's the man behind Montanarelli's prosecution of Linda Tripp. ......"

Alex Jones Radio Show, Interview of Michael McNulty 5/4/00 "…… An Interview of Michael McNulty, Producer of WACO, A New Revelation. Alex Jones Radio Show, May 3, 2000
MM: And at this particular point, I would say this: the timing of Mr. Ghigliotti's death, the timing of Ed Allard's stroke and one other issue: Fred Segal, who is Ed Allard's counterpart on the Branch Davidian team, a well-known FLIR expert, also had an incident. He went and attended the test at Ft. Hood on March the 19th. After departing, he went to upstate New York for an auction he was attending and collapsed - unconscious. He was taken to the hospital. He had a high fever and it seemed he was suffering from blood poisoning. They treated him for ten days with intravenous, high-dosage, high-powered antibiotics. And he did recover.
But those three incidents: Ghigliotti's death, Allard's stroke and Segal's bout with blood poisoning - - had it just been left unattended, it would have killed him, is very curious and very disturbing. So I am very anxious to find out what had happened to Mr. Ghigliotti and I'm hopeful that it was natural and that this was all just circumstances. But, you know, it really leaves me uncomfortable thinking that all these circumstances could happen to the same group of men who are central to the investigation of the FLIR, all in one particular time frame. It's just a lot of coincidences.
AJ: And they tested Segal for anthrax.
MM: No, if it had been anthrax, Mr. Segal would be dead by now.
AJ: Well, I don't know if you saw the Clinton Chronicles and some of those other films?
MM: He would also have symptoms, also.
AJ: Yea, exactly, just right off the bat, when you mentioned the Segal thing, I had been hearing about it, but I hadn't confirmed it, so I didn't talk about it. I heard that, but that protracted sickness, at a low dosage level, some of the folks around Clinton, exposing some of his drug dealing, came up with anthrax..
MM: Segal was definitely blood poisoning. He was not exhibiting any other symptoms. I saw him this weekend, he's fine.
AJ: Well, I understand. You're saying he probably would have died if he wouldn't have been put in the hospital. It's blood poisoning.
MM: Right.
AJ: Did they find out what type of blood poisoning?
MM: All they knew was that there appeared to be a site at which the bacteria entered on his leg. Hey, in Texas, with all the creepy, crawling critters, you can contract blood poisoning, the kind that leaves that wonderful red line that goes from the wound up towards your heart. The standard, everyday, it-will-kill-you-dead if you don't treat it blood poisoning.
AJ: Interesting. And he got sick right after he left Ft. Hood.
MM: Shortly after.
AJ: Oh. Oh, well it was just accidental.
MM: Well, I don't know anything more than you do. (laughs)
AJ: I hear you.
MM: Let's take some calls.....

LAUREL POLICE DEPARTMENT, MD Freeper OutSpot 5/11/00 "…… ***MUST CITE FREEREPUBLIC.COM*** I just got of the phone with the Laurel Police Department. They are in possession of a press release relating to the death of Carlos Ghigliotti. …….. Autopsy results from Carlos Ghigliotti as reported from the office of the Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Maryland. … Mr. Ghigliotti died of natural causes. Cause of death was a heart attack which resulted from arterial cirrhosis. ….. The investigation into the death of Carlos Ghigliotti is therefore being terminated by the Laurel Police Department. …..For copies of the press release call
LAUREL POLICE DEPARTMENT
tel. (301) 498-0092
The doctor who performed the Autopsy was
Dr. Pestaner
Assistant Medical Examiner at the
OFFICE OF CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER FOR THE STATE OF MARYLAND
tel. (401) 333-3250 ….."

The Associated Press 5/14/00 "……."We're not giving up, but I don't know how we'll replace Carlos Ghigliotti," Davidian attorney Mike Caddell told the Waco Tribune-Herald. "He had done more than anyone who has looked at this subject." ……..The plaintiffs had already notified the Waco federal court that they planned to use Ghigliotti as an expert witness in the trial, set to begin June 19 in Waco. …..Ghigliotti was to replace Edward Allard, a physicist from the Army's Night Vision Laboratory who suffered a stroke this spring. It remains unknown whether Allard will play a role in the upcoming trial before U.S. District Judge Walter Smith Jr., who is presiding over the Davidian lawsuit in Waco. ……Caddell said he is working with Laurel police to gain access to Ghigliotti's workplace. He expects to be given permission to enter the facility next week. In addition, Caddell will take the depositions of British infrared experts, possibly in early June. ……The experts, who work for Vector Data Systems, were among those who conducted a March 19 field test at Fort Hood near Killeen. The company submitted its analysis of the test last week Smith. ……"

Washington Weekly 5/9/00 Rep Traficant "…….Mr. Speaker, Carl Ghigliotti, the 42-year-old scientist who investigated the Waco massacre, whose body has been missing for 2 weeks, was found dead. Ghigliotti is the man who flat out said, 'The FBI is lying about Waco. The FBI did fire automatic weapons into the burning building.' …….. Something is wrong here, Mr. Speaker. Records now show the FBI lodged an alleged or false child abuse charge against the Davidians. The FBI denied, then admitted, using tear gas. The FBI confiscated, then supposedly lost, vital autopsy evidence that would prove what happened in Waco. …….. Beam me up. We have developed a stone cold police state in America, believe me, from Waco, Ruby Ridge, to Miami, Florida. Every American knows it, no one is doing anything about it. There must be a full investigation into the death of Carl Ghigliotti……. I yield back the need to pass some oversight on this Justice Department and pass my bill, H.R. 4105……"

106th CONGRESS 2d Session H. R. 4105 "….. To establish the Fair Justice Agency as an independent agency for investigating and prosecuting alleged misconduct, criminal activity, corruption, or fraud by an officer or employee of the Department of Justice. …."

Associated Press 5/14/00 "……A lawyer representing surviving Branch Davidians in a wrongful-death lawsuit against the government says the death of an infrared expert who contended that shots were fired by the government during the final moments of the Waco siege is a major setback in the case……... [Carlos]He told The Washington Post that he had determined that repeated flashes on the video came from government gunfire - and assessment mirroring the analysis of two retired Defense Department experts the sect's lawyers hired. …….Ghigliotti was to replace Edward Allard, a physicist from the Army's Night Vision Laboratory who suffered a stroke this spring. It remains unknown whether Allard will play a role in the upcoming trial before U.S. District Judge Walter Smith Jr., who is presiding over the Davidian lawsuit in Waco………Caddell said he is working with Laurel police to gain access to Ghigliotti's workplace. He expects to be given permission to enter the facility next week. In addition, Caddell will take the depositions of British infrared experts, possibly in early June. ….."

 

Inconsistencies?
And Debate between Dave Hardy, Ol’ Dan Tucker and Ian Goddard

 

Crime Scene

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/4/00 "…….Covenantor writes: First, heartfelt thanks for responding to the questions that have been raised on this forum, as well as the calm you've maintained on this sometimes rowdy thread/s. Re: the office....do you recall the number of adjacent offices or perhaps their tenants? I had planned to swing past this week just to get a sense of the place and surroundings. The un-noticed odor really puzzles me if the adjacent offices are occupied. How could one work there without complaining long and loud about it? ………. [Hardy replies] I didn't really look at the other offices. As I recall, they all had solid doors, no glass panes alongside the doors, that sort of thing. I have no idea why someone wouldn't have noticed the odor--I'd have expected it to get sucked into the cooling ductwork, if nothing else. ……"

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/4/00 "…….Finally one hopes that Carlos had back-ups off-site in a safe place, a seemingly prudent precaution in light of your conversations. If the MD State Police are involved in the investigation, doj already has everything Carllos had in the office or home. [hardy reply] What? You mean the Maryland State Police are something less than totally reliable, apolitical creatures? It can't be! : ) ……….. I dunno how he backed up. It would have been quite a task. I forget exactly the specs he gave on his computers, but they were pretty impressive. He did video, and wasn't a fellow to think that a 5 gig hard drive was big! ………… While I'm at it... One of the earlier posts seemed to say that I'd said Carlos described the words on the FLIR audiotrack, about the fire engines. He didn't. He told me to listen to it... and there the audio track is. It speaks for itself.. ……"

 

Davidians Fired First?

Freeper Ol’Dan Tucker 5/2/00 "……Do you remember when I said that the fall-back position for the feds' cover story about the gunfire recorded on the FLIR being a fire-fight between the feds and the Davidians? I believe this was the source --Carlos Ghigliotti. ……….New York Post 1999? Brian Blomquist - "... He said the tapes also show that the Branch Davidians were firing on the FBI agents during the siege, meaning the FBI could have returned fire based on the rules of engagement..."


Freeper Ol’Dan Tucker 5/3/00 "…….I almost forgot. In reviewing the videos last night I found additional information about this subject in Waco: A New Revelation. …….. According to what was said, when Janet Reno was presented with the assault plan for the final day, it was explained to her that if the tanks/CEVs took gunfire during the gas insertion phase, then the agents would be allowed to return fire. ……"

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/2/00 "……Indeed, it appears that they could use Carlos Ghigliotti’s statements to argue the Feds were only returning fire had they any need to admit to the presence of gunfire on the FLIR test. With the Vector findings being what they are, I’m very concerned! I understand there will be no jury now. Previously that would have not been alarming to me, but having added quite a bit to the "theory" I’m now wondering if the long prison terms given to the Davidians by usurping some procedures at trial – was not a matter of outrage at the time but rather a necessary step to gain control over the survivors in the interest of national security. Sadly, if that is the case the truth will once again be buried in a non-jury trial - though the families might receive substantial damages… (sigh) …..Add my sigh to yours... "

 

Guy Ducking?

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/3/00 "….I would like to hear your analysis of the video showing the guy ducking! This would support the notion that they were very aware of the location of cameras and kept their greatest activity to the rear of the building. BTW, it appears they did the same in the Elian raid – guns were used in the rear only. I find that part intriguing as well. Since Hardy wrote that he's seen it before, there might be a good chance that it's on either WTROE, WANR or possibly Waco II. I'll check tonight and let you know. [Hardy reply] I had seen some footage resembling that, but I dunno where. My knowledge of it is: (1) Carlos said it had been shot by some media cameraman; (2) he said it showed events near the storm shelter or pit; (3) it was *after* the fire broke out; and (4) it was obviously shot from a great distance using fairly powerful telephoto. In the foreground, you see bushes and trees, out of focus. Beyond them you see some tanks. Beyond those you see FBI agents moving about. I can't be more specific than that. ……… To spot the agent won't be easy. If you can find a tape like that, keep rerunning it, focusing on each human figure, one at a time. I suspect any of us could look at it five times and never see the figure. It took Carlos there, putting his finger on the screen, and saying to watch this one blurry figure…….."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/4/00 "……. Thanks for the info. I have found two different clips that are a little like what you've described. They were both shot at about the same time frame and were shot from two slightly different camera angles. The one on the left was taken from Waco II: The Big Lie Continues. I've outlined the tank in bright green and the two feds in red. There is about 30 seconds or so of video in this clip and there is quite a bit of activity as the feds move from this position toward the direction of the front door. ……[photos]…. The one on the right was taken from Waco: A New Revelation and is much shorter than the one in Waco II. The tank is fairly clear. The feds are outlined in red. There appears to be something on the ground between the two feds that is drawing their attention. It shows up in these pics as a white blob. This section is a part of the tape where Doyle talks about his exit from the building. ……… There is a third clip in WANR where a fed exits out the back of a Bradley that's parked down by the underground shelter and appears to assume a shooting stance for a brief instant, then disappears back inside the Bradley, but this clip was shot around the time that the white smoke appeared from inside the shelter. Note that I've color-corrected this image from what was shown in WANR to clarify the details in the shadows. Click on the thumbnail to view the full-size image. …….."

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/4/00 "….Also, I’m extremely anxious to hear what you find tonight on the "guy ducking" and the "water inconsistencies." The research is invaluable in sorting out the accurate details and sources! ......... [Reply from Ol’ Dan Tucker: ] I checked and there's nothing on the tapes I've got that show the guy ducking and the FLIR footage doesn't show the correct angle of the water tanks to be able to make any sort of a determination about the level of water in them. Dan ………. [Reply]I sorta get tired reposting the same stuff, and it seems a statement is no sooner made than it is misconstrued. The guy ducking is NOT on the FLIR, but on a media-made ordinary videotape. Carlos' remark about the level of the water is not based on FLIR made the day of the fire, but on FLIR made on the nights preceding it……"

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/5/00 "…… [Original posting] Also, I’m extremely anxious to hear what you find tonight on the "guy ducking" and the "water inconsistencies." The research is invaluable in sorting out the accurate details and sources! [Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker Reply] I checked and there's nothing on the tapes I've got that show the guy ducking and the FLIR footage doesn't show the correct angle of the water tanks to be able to make any sort of a determination about the level of water in them. Dan ……… [Reply]I sorta get tired reposting the same stuff, and it seems a statement is no sooner made than it is misconstrued. ……

With all due respect, I didn't misconstrue your point. I believe you've misread my response or my response wasn't sufficiently clear. There were two points being made in one sentence. Allow me to break these out:

I checked and there's nothing on the tapes I've got that show the guy ducking...

-- and --

...The FLIR footage doesn't show the correct angle of the water tanks to be able to make any sort of a determination about the level of water in them.

I can see that in the first part, I should have used the words videotaped footage rather than the generic term, tapes. The first two sentences you quoted in the paragraph were written by Alamo-Girl and the last one was written to her by me in response. ......"

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/4/00 "……. [Dan Tucker posts] Thanks for the info. I have found two different clips that are a little like what you've described. They were both shot at about the same time frame and were shot from two slightly different camera angles. The one on the left was taken from Waco II: The Big Lie Continues. I've outlined the tank in bright green and the two feds in red. There is about 30 seconds or so of video in this clip and there is quite a bit of activity as the feds move from this position toward the direction of the front door. The one on the right was taken from Waco: A New Revelation and is much shorter than the one in Waco II. The tank is fairly clear. The feds are outlined in red. There appears to be something on the ground between the two feds that is drawing their attention. It shows up in these pics as a white blob. This section is a part of the tape where Doyle talks about his exit from the building…….. {Hardy reply: I dunno. The images he showed me were much more zoomed-in than either of these. The camera angle seemed closer to the one on the left, with some bushes and trees in the foreground. But the image was much closer, from a longer focal length lens, I would guess. The image on the right seems to be of the scene where the FBI agents left the Bradley to grab one of the survivors--I forget her name now, but she was burned or burning. There's also stills of that scene, made from the air. The image you've got below... that was definitely not the tape he showed me. The one he showed me was during the fire, and the agents appeared to be on the far side of the vehicles, not the near side. ……"


Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/5/00 "…… {Hardy reply: I dunno. The images he showed me were much more zoomed-in than either of these. The camera angle seemed closer to the one on the left, with some bushes and trees in the foreground. But the image was much closer, from a longer focal length lens, I would guess. The image on the right seems to be of the scene where the FBI agents left the Bradley to grab one of the survivors--I forget her name now, but she was burned or burning. There's also stills of that scene, made from the air. The image you've got below... that was definitely not the tape he showed me. The one he showed me was during the fire, and the agents appeared to be on the far side of the vehicles, not the near side. ……… Thank you for the clarification. ………. From what I could gather from the action on the videotaped footage from which the image on the right was taken, the white blob appears to be moving, so it could very well be one of the survivors. By extension, since the videotaped footage that the left image was taken from was from the same approximate time frame, then this image probably also shows the agents dealing with a survivor, too. ……… As I originally wrote in my reply #
119 to Alamo-Girl there's nothing on the videotaped footage that I have that shows what you described as the guy ducking in front of the tank. I only posted these to run them by you because they more closely matched the description you posted here than what you originally wrote in in your article. ……. Once again, thanks for the clarification. dan ……"

 

 

Commander calling for Fire Trucks?

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/2/00 "……The soundtrack of the FLIR picks up their radio traffic that day. On the soundtrack, the commander at the scene is calling for fire engines, being told they are on the way, and hearing reports that none are arriving. ……. He finally gets so upset that he screams into the radio, "If you have any fire engines down there, get them up here immediately!" ……..He is told they will be there momentarily ... and none arrive. ……..Either he had been overruled by higher command, or the agents had gone insubordinate and were making sure the Davidians would burn. There was also a strange conversation about someone outside the building, and then pops that sounded like gunfire, and the FLIR aircraft pilot's asking another crewman "did you hear that?" ……….If this is true, then are Rogers and Jamar really the caring ones who called for the fire engines to be sent up? Are we really to believe that their orders were contramanded by either their superiors at FBI HQ or the DOIj or even the White House or that some renegade agent held back the fire engines to get their pound of flesh? ……I had thought that Rogers and/or Jamar said that they withheld the fire engines out of concern for the safety of the firefighters. Now we're to believe that these two are the good guys? Yah, right! ……."

Freeper Leper Messiah 5/2/00 "……If the sections you mention have been witheld from Caddell (as he alledges there have been witholdings/alterations)Rogers' lies regarding the fire truck make more sense. Imagine a recording of Jamar screaming "send those fire trucks now" and they don't come. Proof of this would be priceless. This all is surealistic, we'll just have to wait and see...."

Freeper Ol’Dan Tucker 5/2/00 "……Ghigliotti’s talking about "the commander at the scene" frantically calling for firetrucks does indeed contradict the blame being pinned on Jamar and Rogers by the Davidian attorneys! Were there any people at the scene that might have been known as a "commander" other than the FBI? …….To my knowledge, Rogers and Jamar were the on-scene commanders. AFAIK, this was the FBI's show, so I don't think anyone at Mt. Carmel would have "out-ranked" them. (pun intended) ……"

Ian Goddard 5/3/00 to Ol’ Dan Tucker "…..……. Your argument assumes it's absurd to believe that underlings might take the fall for decisions of higher ups. To the contrary, I'd say such transfer of blame to subordinates is standard operating procedure. Furthermore, it's not indicated exactly who the person was who is said to have been calling for the trucks. It's plausible that not all agents on the scene know of an intent to let it burn, and thus those people react in an ethical fashion...."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker to Ian Goddard "……………….My argument points out the contradiction of Hardy's account of what he says Ghigliotti said with the public statements of Jeff Jamar, the on-site commander, when he himself said that he gave the orders to withhold the fire engines out of concern for the safety of the firefighters. So there was no transfer of blame on the part of Jamar. Instead it is Hardy's statements that he's attributed to Ghigliotti that transfer the blame to the underlings and away from Jamar and/or Rogers. ………Actually, I find the statement, "On the soundtrack, the commander at the scene is calling for fire engines" to be quite clear as to whom is being referenced. How many commanders where at the scene? Only two that I'm aware; Jamar and Rogers. ……I do agree with your last statement about those who've been kept out of the loop reacting in an ethical fashion. I'd call that plausible deniability. ……… Given the public statements of the survivors about how they claimed the FBI agents on site at Mt. Carmel acted in the days leading up to the final day, I would find such ethical behavior to be a little out of character. The survivors themselves have said that they had very real concerns about sending their kids out into the hands of the FBI and ATF for the very reasons I've cited. ......"

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/3/00 "….The fact that Jamar said he stopped the engines does not rule out the possibility that blame had been transfered to him, as you argue. To the contrary, in hierachiracl command structures, subordinates can be told what they must say, and then they say it. If one does not know that, one might assume, as you do, that the subordinate must be acting on his own…."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/3/00 "…….….. You missed the point. Jamar took the blame for withholding the fire engines. But Hardy says that Ghigliotti said that the commander at the scene, presumably Jamar called for the fire engines and someone else contramanded his orders. ……. If I understand what you've written, you're saying that Jamar fell on his sword to protect one of his superiors or subordinates? ……"

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/3/00 "…. ……. Jamar may have stated during Congressional hearings that he stopped the engines in order to take the blame off those on top who actually stopped the engines……."

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/3/00 "…. [Hardy reply: The fire engines, according to the DoJ report, responded at 12:34. Rogers [HR-1] did indeed call for them to be sent in... of course, this was after the building had collapsed in flames, at 12:39 as I recollect. *Even after* this, the engines were apparently held, despite his belated request. ......... I am, for the sake of being concise, being somewhat imprecise in the article. In fact, the belated call for the fire engines comes from HR-1, Rogers. The "higher command" which apparently delays them is SA-1, who appears to be Jamar. There is no indication the matter is routed to Washington. Since you view Jamar as culpable, I trust you will find this a relief.]….."

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/3/00 "….Are we really to believe that their orders were contramanded by either their superiors at FBI HQ or the DOIj or even the White House or that some renegade agent held back the fire engines to get their pound of flesh? [Hardy reply: or all of the above. If we are go by plausibility rather than evidence, why is the suggestion that (1) the on-scene commander held off the engines or (2) ATF or FBI agents held off the engines, implausible?]

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/3/00 "….I had thought that Rogers and/or Jamar said that they withheld the fire engines out of concern for the safety of the firefighters. Now we're to believe that these two are the good guys? Yah, right! [Hardy reply: ???? Where in Hades do you see me saying that? ………… Jamar (I'm not sure about Rogers) indeed claimed in his congressional testimony that he was protecting the firemen. I regard it as a ridiculous excuse. …………. What has that to do with the fact that, after the building collapsed, Rogers is clearly audible on the tape calling for fire engines to be let in, and "SA-1" (who in other documents is treated as synonymous with "OSC"--that is, Jamar, the On Scene Commander) keeps telling him the engines are on the way... when they are not? This is simple fact, and when I get some spare time, I'll post the audio to my web page. I'll agree that it rather startled me... I had always regarded Rogers, the macho HRT commander, as a more likely culprit than Jamar, who was just some ordinary FBI middle management. But there they are on the sound track. Rogers does not come off as a saint... he apparently delays until the building collapses... but Jamar comes off much the worse.]

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/4/00 "….As far as the fire engines: the fact is that on the FLIR audio track, at 12:35 or 12:39, I forget which, those conversations are heard over the radio. They happened, period. Rogers calls for the engines (he's waited until the building collapses--the aircraft crew remarks "there is goes."). SA-1, presumably Jamar, tells him they're coming, and they aren't. Rogers starts yelling. They still don't come. ………… But isn't this obvious??? Look, we know that Jamar held up the engines, he said so to Congress. We know that the engines eventually arrived--here are their photos, and images on the FLIR. So we know to a certainty that someone *eventually* did let them in. Okay, so what is there to debate? We have to agree that *at some point* Jamar let them go. ……….Given the radio conversations, question is whether there was something more to this than just stopping the engines at one point and letting them go five or ten minutes later. Jamar is saying they're on the way, and they are not on the way. There are two likely explanations: (1) Jamar was still holding them, and misleading Rogers for some reason. Or (2) Jamar was being truthful when he said they are on the way... but some of his subordinates have decided to hold them even longer. The guys holding them, and probably Jamar himself, at not eyeballing the scene. They can see smoke, certainly, and know a fire has been raging for some time. The question is whether one of the two might have figured "heck, that hasn't been burning long enough: let's keep these engines back a bit longer." ……….."

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/3/00 "……. Ghigliotti’s talking about "the commander at the scene" frantically calling for firetrucks does indeed contradict the blame being pinned on Jamar and Rogers by the Davidian attorneys! Were there any people at the scene that might have been known as a "commander" other than the FBI? [Hardy reply: Carlos didn't specifically say that; if it's in one of the interviews, it's an error. Carlos asked if I'd listened to the soundtrack of the last tape, after about 12:30. I said not really. He said "why not? You ought to" or words to that effect, and I did. From that reference I found the audio track. The conversation is between "HR-1" (I assume Rogers, Hostage Rescue Team top dog) and "SA-1", who in logs is idenified as "SA-1 (OSC)," likely Jeff Jamar, Special Agent in Charge and On-Scene Commander. ………. "

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/4/00 "…… I am, for the sake of being concise, being somewhat imprecise in the article. In fact, the belated call for the fire engines comes from HR-1, Rogers. The "higher command" which apparently delays them is SA-1, who appears to be Jamar. There is no indication the matter is routed to Washington. Since you view Jamar as culpable, I trust you will find this a relief.].……. It was this lack of precision as to the timing that caught my attention. Thank you for the clarification. ......"

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/4/00 "…… [Hardy reply: or all of the above. If we are go by plausibility rather than evidence, why is the suggestion that (1) the on-scene commander held off the engines or (2) ATF or FBI agents held off the engines, implausible?] ……… I never said it was implausible, only that the claim that they were heard calling on the radio for engines to be sent up was inconsistent with their public statements that they held off the engines out of concern for the safety of the firefighters. ……"

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/5/00 "…… As far as the fire engines: the fact is that on the FLIR audio track, at 12:35 or 12:39, I forget which, those conversations are heard over the radio. They happened, period. Rogers calls for the engines (he's waited until the building collapses--the aircraft crew remarks "there is goes."). SA-1, presumably Jamar, tells him they're coming, and they aren't. Rogers starts yelling. They still don't come. …..But isn't this obvious??? Look, we know that Jamar held up the engines, he said so to Congress. We know that the engines eventually arrived--here are their photos, and images on the FLIR. So we know to a certainty that someone *eventually* did let them in. Okay, so what is there to debate? We have to agree that *at some point* Jamar let them go. Of course it was. That's why I thanked you for the clarification in my reply #150.

 

 

Hosing of the Back of the Building?

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/2/00 "……By the end, Carlos told me that he had spotted nearly 200 likely gunshots, many at full auto. …..The FBI hadn't merely fired shots on April 19, it had hosed down the back of the building with rapid gunfire. ………Two hundred rounds fired at, or rather hosed down the back of the building and not a single round struck the side or back walls of the concrete pantry. Strange. ……"

Freeper nsmart 5/2/00 "……The building, itself, was evidence. The ATF had fired through the walls and through the ceiling from helicopters .. into a building known to contain some 40 kids at the time. Several Davidians were killed by this gunfire. How could that have been spun? Once a decision to burn the building was made, it didn't matter if the FBI fired into the building…… I was very interested in the funding of the initial raid being bogus. I do know the use of 3 helicopters and the training of the ATF prior to the raid was based on the raid being drug related (which it wasn't). ….."

Freeper Ol’Dan Tucker 5/2/00 "……The absence of rounds on the back wall of the pantry in light of the claim of "hosing" could support my theory that it was a military mop-up, since under that theory they would need to seal off exits and protect the "bunker" from leakage during a controlled blast/fire (hole in the bunker.) ……… Let's take your theory one step further. The mutilation of Jimmy Riddle's body was confirmed as being caused by a tank. According to WANR, his body was found out behind the building. But this is in direct contradiction with the official record that shows his body was recovered from in front of the pantry. We also know that a tank (CEV?) penetrated deeply inside the front of the main building, presumably to "gas" the occupants of the pantry. I submit that it was this CEV that mutilated Riddle's body, not the one that penetrated the back wall of the gym and that Riddle was already dead by the time this occurred. If Riddle was already dead, then it seems likely that the Henry brothers were, too, since their bodies were recorded being recovered from the same part of the building. If these three were already dead, then it's very probable that a lot of the other people in this area were already dead as well, which as you know is Carol Valentine's theory......."

Ian Goddard 5/3/00 to Ol’ Dan Tucker "…..Why would you expect Delta-Force gunmen to shoot at the wall with no windows or targets that was in front of the concrete room? It stands to reason that the gunmen would fire at places where there were targets…."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker to Ian Goddard "…………….How do you know they were Delta Force and not NG, FBI, ATF or even JTF6? ……..I never claimed that the shooters were shooting at a wall with no windows. I do claim that if someone is engaged in a firefight, there are going to be what are known as flyers or stray rounds that are fired above, below, to the left and to the right of the intended strike zone, especially if done with automatic weapons against a moving target. ……….With the exception of those who died in the Feb. 28 raid, the remains for everyone whose deaths were attributed to gunshot wounds were recovered from either in front of, on top of, or inside the concrete pantry. Not a single body was recovered from the back of the building in the area where the firefight is claimed to have occurred.

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker to Ian Goddard "………It's not that I think that Peerwani's reports are the gospel. Just the opposite is true. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw the state of Texas, but until someone comes up with some evidence that refutes it, that's what I'm stuck with. I can't just invent fanciful tales about how people were running around behind the building shooting it out with a Delta Force squad that's spraying down the back of the building with bullets and ignore the official reports or the reality of gunfights. If anything, the condition of the bodies point to the majority of the people being already dead by the time the fire broke out. Jimmy Riddle is an excellent example. ……..The walls of the pantry were in the line of fire between the location of the shooters as has been attributed to the FLIR and the location of those whose deaths have been attributed to gunshot wounds. If the shooters weren't shooting at the people whose deaths were attributed to gunshot wounds, then what or who were they shooting at? ……..If they were shooting at the people whose deaths were attributed to gunshot wounds and none of their bullets struck the pantry walls, then how did the remains of those whose deaths were attributed to gunshot wounds get to where they were recorded as being recovered? ….."

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/3/00 "….…. They could be FBI, but the Delta Forced is implicated. It seems to me that the gunman in the courtyard is shooting at the second and third stories above the concrete room. As you note, many people shot were found on the roof of the concrete room. ….."

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/3/00 "….. …….I don't believe that Ghigliotti's findings are a "fanciful tale," but are instead based on photographic evidence we can see (for the most part, of course available FLIR copies are not as good as the copy he had). On the other hand, Peerwani's findings, which you seem to prioritize over Ghigliotti's findings, are not verified by any photographic evidence we can see. So your downgrading of Ghigliotti's finding to a "fanciful tale" because of an alleged contradiction with the unsupported claims of Peerwani seems to me to be illogical. …." And added "…That is, Peerwani's findings about the locations where bodies were found. Which, since many were found on the roof of the concrete room -- where anyone who was shot while in the rooms above the concrete room would be found -- is in line with shots from the rear……"

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/3/00 "….……The rear wall of the concrete room was not is the line of fire of rooms above it. People shot in those upper rooms would end up on the roof of the concrete room, where many were found, as you noted. ….."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/3/00 "…….……..And as far as Caddell is concerned, his interviews with the three Delta Force members exonerated them from any involvement in the gunfire recorded on the FLIR. Who's right? You or Caddell? ……."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/3/00 ………."Fanciful tale" was probably a poor choice of words and didn't properly convey what I meant. Let me try again. ………I was not the one who said there the FBI "hosed down the back of the building", Hardy did. While I may have serious doubts about Peerwani's conclusions as to the cause of death attributed on the autopsy reports, I don't think that anyone altered the positions of the little red flags that indicated where the bodies were recovered as recorded in the numerous photographic and video records taken during the recovery of the bodily remains. Do you have anything that would show that the locations where the bodies were recovered as recorded on the charts and in the official record is false? In other words, the official record shows that the bodies were recovered from in front of, on top of and inside the pantry. Do you have anything that can show that the bodies were recovered from the back of the building? …….."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/3/00 "…….I didn't write that many were found on the roof. Re-read what I wrote. Only four peoples' remains whose deaths were attributed to gunshot wounds were recoverd from atop the roof of the pantry. The rest were recovered from in front of or inside the pantry. None were recovered from beside the pantry or from the back of the building. ………It's possible, though not necessarily probable, that the four peoples' remains whose deaths were attributed to gunshot wounds and recovered from atop the pantry were on one of the upper floors as you've written. But, nothing of the sort can be said of the people's remains recovered inside the pantry. ………I will ask once again. With the possible exception of those bodies recovered from the roof of the pantry, the walls of the pantry were in the line of fire between the location of the shooters as has been attributed to the FLIR and the location of those whose deaths have been attributed to gunshot wounds. If the shooters weren't shooting at the people whose deaths were attributed to gunshot wounds, then at what or at who were they shooting? …….If they were shooting at the people whose deaths were attributed to gunshot wounds and none of their bullets struck the pantry walls, then how did the remains of those whose deaths were attributed to gunshot wounds get to where they were recorded as being recovered? ……."

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/3/00 "….You've managed to make the test of the reliability of Sergeant Steven Barry's testimony that I cited a test of the reliability of Caddell versus myself. Frankly, I don't see where I properly fit into any test of the evidence. ……"

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/3/00 "….…….. It seems you've managed to create a false requirement: that Ghigliotti's findings require that there be dead bodies in the back of the building. Where did Ghigliotti say he saw dead bodies in the back of the building? According to what you say (and I believe based on the DoJ Report), there are at least four people (on top of the concrete room) that the courtyard gunshots could have taken out. Further, it's not required that every gunshot kill a person, and some people could have been hit, turned and ran, only to die in another location. Also, if the choice is between claims about where bodies were found versus videotape of someone being killed in a given location (assuming someone is seen being killed on the FLIR and I seem to recall Infraspection said something to that effect), I'd go with the photographic evidence. ……."

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/3/00 "….By the end, Carlos told me that he had spotted nearly 200 likely gunshots, many at full auto. The FBI hadn't merely fired shots on April 19, it had hosed down the back of the building with rapid gunfire. Two hundred rounds fired at, or rather hosed down the back of the building and not a single round struck the side or back walls of the concrete pantry. Strange. [Hardy reply: (1) the pantry, or vault, is a relatively small location.... perhaps 20-25 ft in width out of a building over 150 ft. wide. (2) Most of the gunshots were directed toward the chapel area or the other end of the building, not toward the vault, in the center. Not much purpose shooting at concrete, after all. (3) How would we know if some rounds DID hit the vault? Have you seen any photos of its exterior so clear that, despite the soot, burned materials piled up, and all, you could have spotted the remnants of a bullet hole? A .223 hitting concrete doesn't exactly blast a large hole. I've seen plenty of photos of the back side of the vault, and none were close enough to have made out a bullet hole. Ever try to make out the bullet holes in the Washington Monument? Those were left by .308's, with twice the power of a .223. Oh... okay... you don't know about the bullet holes in the Monument... they're there. Long story. You had to be there, to appreciate the full humor of it.]

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/4/00 "….As far as bullets hitting the vault exterior, how would we know? A bullet leaves a small mark on concrete. The walls of the vault are then subjected to fire. I've seen no photos of them which were close enough to where I'd be confident that one could tell whether or not there were bullet hits. ……"

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/4/00 "…… Dan wrote: The walls of the pantry were in the line of fire between the location of the shooters as has been attributed to the FLIR and the location of those whose deaths have been attributed to gunshot wounds. ……… False, and we've already been over this. Five (not four) of the nine dead people on the roof were shot (before the fire, the roof was the floor of a second-story room). Now look at these men on the roof after the fire: ………. Those agents are where the five people who were shot in the room above vault were, and this angle of view is similar to that of the gunman in the courtyard (except I believe this view is somewhat downhill). If you were to shoot at one of those men on the roof, why would the bullet have to pass through the wall of the concrete room below to hit one of them as you claim? …….. Obvioulsy all five people shot above the vault could have been shot without a single bullet ever hitting the rear wall, and thus your claim to the contrary is not true. ……… "

Freeper Ol’Dan Tucker 5/4/00 "……. Those agents are where the five people who were shot in the room above vault were, and this angle of view is similar to that of the gunman in the courtyard (except I believe this view is somewhat downhill). If you were to shoot at one of those men on the roof, why would the bullet have to pass through the wall of the concrete room below to hit one of them as you claim? Obvioulsy all five people shot above the vault could have been shot without a single bullet ever hitting the rear wall, and thus your claim to that effect is not true ………… Assuming that all the people were standing upright as we see the in the picture you posted, you could be right. Do we know that all five of the people on the roof were standing upright when they were shot? ......... According to what Dave Hardy wrote yesterday, none of the gunfire depicted on the FLIR was directed at the location of the pantry. He wrote that all of it was directed at both the chapel area to the left of the pantry (as seen by the shooters) and the area of the underground shelter. If we assume that all of the gunshot wound victims were shot in either the chapel or the other end of the building by the shooters captured on the FLIR, then none of them were shot where their bodies were recovered. There are only a few ways by which they arrived at the location where their bodies were recovered. This includes the gunshot wound victims whose remains were recovered on the roof of the pantry, those in front of the pantry and those inside the pantry. This would be true for those with head wounds and those with chest wounds. ……….. Another possibility is that some or all of the gunshot wound victims were shot before the fire broke out and their bodies may have been dumped in the area of the pantry. Jimmy Riddle could certainly fall into this category. Or they could have been shot where they fell by someone not captured on the FLIR. …….."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/4/00 "…… [Hardy reply: (1) the pantry, or vault, is a relatively small location.... perhaps 20-25 ft in width out of a building over 150 ft. wide. (2) Most of the gunshots were directed toward the chapel area or the other end of the building, not toward the vault, in the center. Not much purpose shooting at concrete, after all. (3) How would we know if some rounds DID hit the vault? Have you seen any photos of its exterior so clear that, despite the soot, burned materials piled up, and all, you could have spotted the remnants of a bullet hole? A .223 hitting concrete doesn't exactly blast a large hole. I've seen plenty of photos of the back side of the vault, and none were close enough to have made out a bullet hole. Ever try to make out the bullet holes in the Washington Monument? Those were left by .308's, with twice the power of a .223. Oh... okay... you don't know about the bullet holes in the Monument... they're there. Long story. You had to be there, to appreciate the full humor of it.] …….
(1) Thanks for the clarification about the direction of fire.
(2) I never claimed that the shooters were shooting at the concrete walls, just the people who died from gunshot wounds.
(3) Because when bullets strike concrete or masonry, they leave distinctive pockmarks or scars. Yes, I have seen close-up photographs or rather videotape of close-up photos of the back and both side walls. They were included in Waco: A New Revelation. (WANR) The sooting is only present on one of the side walls and even then it isn't dark enough to obscure this type of scarring. Also only one of the side walls had debris piled up against it. The other side wall and back wall were free of debris and sooting as seen in WANR …….[photos] ……As you can see, the scars are distinctive and not all that hard to discern at the distances seen in WANR.

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/4/00 "…… Dan: According to what Dave Hardy wrote yesterday, none of the gunfire depicted on the FLIR was directed at the location of the pantry. ……. That's not exactly what Hardy said. He said: "Most of the gunshots were directed toward the chapel area or the other end of the building, not toward the vault, in the center." Almost all the couryard shots are oriented as depicted here: …[photo]…"

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/4/00 "…….Dan: Assuming that all the people were standing upright as we see the in the picture you posted, you could be right. Do we know that all five of the people on the roof were standing upright when they were shot? ……… It's apparent to me that at least one agent is on bent knee, not standing upright, and just as well could be sitting on a chair. I understand that the backyard goes slightly uphill, which would give a gunman in the courtyard a slightly better angle than the cameraman's view here from the front. From this lower angle, it looks like someone sitting on a chair on the far end of the roof would still fall in the line of direct fire from the camera's location, at least their head would be visible. I think only someone laying on the floor toward to opposite side of the room would not be in the line of fire over the room. ……"

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/4/00 "…….Dan: Another possibility is that some or all of the gunshot wound victims were shot before the fire broke out and their bodies may have been dumped in the area of the pantry. Jimmy Riddle could certainly fall into this category. Or they could have been shot where they fell by someone not captured on the FLIR. ………. Also, some could have been shot, realized it came from the rear and thus struggled towards the front. Not an unlikely scenario, since often bullet wounds aren't fatal, and if struck, you'd move away from the location you believed it came from. …."

Ian Goddard 5/4/00 "…… The wall Dan calls the back is not the back, and the wall that is the back has bullet-like impacts in it. The sunlit side of the vault seen here is the back wall: …….As we can see, the flags are on the opposite side as the sunlit side, and the flags are on the front side. Ergo: the sunlit side of the vault seen above is the back. As we can see, there's no large chip out of the edge above, but there is on what would be the same edge of the side that Dan says is the back: ….. [photos]…… Again, there's no chip out of the edge, and I count at least two bullet-type impacts. Assuming that the first image I post in this reply is the back as I believe it to be, I count perhaps as many as five bullet-type impacts in total on the back wall, completely contradicting the argument promoted here that there's no bullet-like holes in the rear wall of the church vault. …….."

Ian Goddard 5/4/00 "……However, the apparent stove does appear to support Dan's back side, since the same object appears to be in both images that we each say is the back. If the chipped-out edge and the long crack running near it happened later, that solves the puzzle, and we're both right. If we assume that the image Dan says is the back, note that the main bullet-like impact seen from the aerial photo is behind the ladder. Even if both Dan's and my back-of-the-vault are the same side (in which case the chipped edge happened later), the take-home point is that that there ARE bullet-like holes in the rear wall......."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker to Ian Goddard"…..It's apparent to me that at least one agent is on bent knee, not standing upright, and just as well could be sitting on a chair. I understand that the backyard goes slightly uphill, which would give a gunman in the courtyard a slightly better angle than the cameraman's view here from the front. From this lower angle, it looks like someone sitting on a chair on the far end of the roof would still fall in the line of direct fire from the camera's location, at least their head would be visible. I think only someone laying on the floor toward to opposite side of the room would not be in the line of fire over the room.

What you've described would be plausible assuming that the shooters could see everyone on the second floor. In the back of the tower, there was only one window on the second floor, one on the third floor and one on the fourth. The back wall would have blocked their view of the people inside.

In order to be reasonably sure of hitting everyone or even most of the people above the pantry, the shooters would have had to spray the tower with bullets, which was my original point about the pockmarks. Because the shooters would have no idea where the concrete walls of the pantry ended (back and side) and the wooden walls of the tower began (back and side), it stands to reason that they would have to spray bullets from side to side and up and down, which would have caused quite a few pockmarks to be left in the back wall near the roof of the pantry.

I'll see if I can come up with some higher resolution grabs of the pantry walls off the videotape to aid with the discussion. If so, I'll post them on thread #3.

Also, some could have been shot, realized it came from the rear and thus struggled towards the front. Not an unlikely scenario, since often bullet wounds aren't fatal, and if struck, you'd move away from the location you believed it came from.

Of course, some of the ground level victims may have been shot and struggled to a safe position as you've suggested, but I don't know that I would be able to say that all of the victims did this. Considering the number of victims suffering head wounds, I don't think I can agree with your statement; "often bullet wounds aren't fatal." Common sense dictates that where head wounds are concerned, the opposite is usually true.

Because of the large number of gunshot wounds to the heads, the varying levels of decomposition and the mutilation suffered by a lot of the victims, I think I'm still leaning toward the theory that a number of them were killed earlier and their bodies were dumped and the building burned burned to hide the times, places and circumstances of their deaths as well as destroying the evidence of the govt's crimes.

This also seems to fit better with the theory behind purpose of the hole in the roof being a caused by a breaching charge to cause the collapse of the roof to make the condition of the bodies of people whose deaths were attributed to the collapse of the roof agree with a predetermined cover story.

Here's a list I compiled of the gunshot wound victims, the locations where their remains were recovered and the type of wounds they suffered. Click on the locations to see the body recovery chart.

Hallway
7 - Steve Schneider - gunshot wound, mouth
8 - David Koresh - gunshot wound, mid-forehead

Kitchen
20 - Jimmy Riddle - gunshot wound, mid-forehead
21 - Steven Henry - gunshot wounds
22 - Phillip Henry - multiple gunshot wounds, head and upper torso

Inside Pantry
31A - Aisha Summers - gunshot wound to the left chest
31D-E - parts of human skull, 11-14 yrs., gunshot wound to left skull
43 - Lisa Ferris - gunshot wound to the left head
44 - John Doe - gunshot wound to the left chest
45 - Mary Jean Borst - gunshot wound of the back
47 - Jane Doe - gunshot wound to the head
53 - Jane Doe 5-5.5 yrs. - gunshot wound to the left chest
66 - Jane Doe - gunshot wounds to the left back and thorax
67-B - infant - gunshot wound to the head

Pantry Roof
34 - Sonobe - gunshot wound of the head
35 - Shari Doyle - gunshot wound left posterior head
36 - David M. Jones - gunshot wound of the head
39 - Novellette Hipsman - gunshot wounds of the head and chest
41 - Neil Vaega - gunshot wound to the head ......"


Freeper JasonC 5/5/00 

"…….. I don't think you can make much of the location of bodies that died from gunshots. #1, we don't really know all that much about the integrity of the scene, that nothing was moved. #2, the siege lasted several hours and presumably the people hit could have been moved during that period. In fact, this is extremely likely if there were an ongoing gunfight, as the Davideans would have tried to help their own people hit. Including by getting them to shelter from the gun-fire - behind concrete cover for example. If in addition, the fire progressed while some of these were still alive (or the Davideans did not know), then you'd expect to find them concentrated in areas the fire reached later. Thus, the picture you are relying on, that where a body is said to have been found and where the person was originally shot, must coincide, is not reasonable let alone necessary. Which doesn't prove anything, of course - it simple shows that your reasoning alone, does not rule out a gunfight. Personally, I find the hardest part of the government account to be why they panicked and dumped in the gas quickly - what were they afraid of? Small arms fire is no threat to men in a CEV. But a molotov cocktail, on the other hand - now that would be a threat to them. It would also mean their men in the CEVs were in danger - which by their rules of engagement allowed deadly force (as "overwatch", effectively - cover fire) to "protect" them. This is pretty tight reasoning. Explanations that say there was no threat to the men in the CEVs cannot explain the panic to dump the gas faster than planned. Any effective threat to the men implies a rationale to use force to "cover" them. Molotovs fit the threat, the fire, and the things heard on the tapes - but are more speculative (though barely). But panic implies real threat to the men in the CEVs, real threat implies rules of engagement allow use of force - that is just too tight for anything to slip between.


……"

Freeper Ol’Dan Tucker to JasonC 5/5/0 "……The seige may have lasted several hours, but the gunbattle being discussed occurred between 11:30am and 12:30pm or during the final hour.

According to the autopsy reports, there were widely varying degrees of decomposition for the victims. A large number of the victims, including gunshot wound victims, were dismembered and some were even decapitated. It is entirely reasonable to assume that a dismembered and decapitated body was dumped.

Some of the deaths were attributed to blunt force trauma, suffocation and being buried alive in the debris from the collapse of the concrete roof of the pantry. This last point is extremely problematic because pictures taken of the pantry after the fire show that the roof didn't collapse, only that it had a hole in it that was 18" - 24" across. The Texas Ranger in charge of the recovery of the bodies and evidence from the pantry described the hole in the roof as being caused by an explosive, yet the DOIj report doesn't mention it, nor is the cause investigated by anyone.

I don't believe that there was a panicked dumping of the CS as you've described. Instead, I believe that the govt used the methyl Chloride and CS as a fuel to turn Mt. Carmel into a tinderbox, thus guaranteeing the complete destruction of the evidence of their crimes committed against the Davidians. The most intensive CS gassing took place in the pantry area itself. I believe that this was done to guarantee nearly complete destruction by fire of the bodies of the victims. They used this combination to give them plausible deniabilty in later inquiries.

Preliminary autopsies were performed on the bodies to establish the cause of death, but no determination of the manner of death (murder, suicide, accidental) is performed. Bodies stored in the FBI-supplied trailer liquify when the power to the trailer's reefer unit is inexplicably disconnected, thus preventing any further forensic examination.

I also believe that the audio you've described that's said to have come from bugs inside the compound was doctored by the FBI to give the govt plausible deniabilty that the Davidians themselves started the fire.

If you haven't had a chance to visit the Waco Holocause Electronic Museum, I'd suggest visiting and exploring the physical evidence

of the condition of the bodies and the lies told in the autopsy reports as a part of the cover story for the govt's crimes. Dan......"


Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/5/0 "……. Here's the quote from WANR about the rules of engagement I promised.

Section of Waco: A New Revelation that describes the rules of engagement for the final day's assault.

Dick Reavis: "The plan was to allow this (CS gas assault) to continue for 48 hours. But there was a catch to the plan. If the tanks took fire from the Davidians, they were then allowed to escalate the plan."

Narrator: "According to the official briefing given to Attorney General Janet Reno by the FBI on April the 12, (1993 -ed) the assault plan called for demolition of the building and permission to shoot streams of automatic weapons fire into the building to support an armored vehicle's approach."

Major Case #80:
Assault on a Federal Officer
Briefing for the Attorney General
April 12, 1993

Provide one driver and one TC to operate CEV #2. Mount the remainder of the team in BV #3.

Man the crew served weapons position at Sniper #2. Mount the remainder of the team in BV #4.

Snipers will occupy the Sniper position #1 to provide real time tactical intelligence, long range precision and suppresive fire to support an armored vehicle's approach to the compound. (See the attached Annex for details)

Snipers will occupy the Sniper positions #2 and the Sniper #3 positions and provide real time tactical intelligence, long range precision and suppresive fire to support an armored vehicle's approach to the compound. (See the attached Annex for details) ……"

 

Was there still water left in the Tank?

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/2/00 "……The water was stored in those big plastic tanks at the rear of the building, and the coolness of the water inside showed up as a darker area. It was apparent that the water supply was shrinking, and by April 19 was almost gone. He had heard the aircraft crew talking about it and noting that the level was going down. ……….Fire survivor, Clive Doyle, states in Waco: A New Revelation, that the water barrels had been shot up and all the water had leaked away leaving them to collect rainwater for washing, drinking and cooking. He said that he doubted that anyone had more than 8 ounces of water a day. Who do we believe here, Doyle or Ghigliotti? ……."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/2/00 "……I’m also very curious about the water inconsistencies. Perhaps Ghigliotti’s statements can be confirmed or refuted by further examination of the original FLIR evidence. ……….. Again, I didn't have a chance to check this out last night before I posted this, but will follow-up tonight. Previously I checked the large propane tank on the FLIR for this very same thing and came to the conclusion that based upon the absence of "water-line" that it really was empty at the time of the fire. …….I also seem to remember someone, possibly Doyle, saying on WTROE that the water tanks were shot up by the choppers during the ATF raid on Feb. 28 because he went to check on someone (can't remember who right now) and found his room was flooded with water. I believe he said that he discovered that the water was coming from the water tanks that were adjacent to the room and that the water was coming in from the bullet holes in the walls and the tanks……."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/3/00 "…..Also, I’m extremely anxious to hear what you find tonight on the "guy ducking" and the "water inconsistencies." The research is invaluable in sorting out the accurate details and sources!……… I checked and there's nothing on the tapes I've got that show the guy ducking and the FLIR footage doesn't show the correct angle of the water tanks to be able to make any sort of a determination about the level of water in them...."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/3/00 "…….Also, what do you think about the contradiction of what Hardy says about the water issue? Doyle said in WANR that the water tanks had been shot up and the water had leaked out and that they had to collect rainwater to survive. Hardy says that Ghigliotti said the water tanks still had water in them and that he could tell by the FLIR that the level was going down as it was being used……"

Freeper Ian Goddard 5/3/00 "….The water tanks may have been shot up, but unless bullets hit the very bottoms, there should have been some water left. Clive says they drank as much as 8 ounces of water per day, over ninety people that's probably around twenty gallons per day, times 51 days is about 1000 gallons consumed during the seige. It stands to reason some water was left, consistent with what Ghigliotti indicates to be on the FLIR tape. ……"

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/3/00 "……I’m also very curious about the water inconsistencies. Perhaps Ghigliotti’s statements can be confirmed or refuted by further examination of the original FLIR evidence. Again, I didn't have a chance to check this out last night before I posted this, but will follow-up tonight. Previously I checked the large propane tank on the FLIR for this very same thing and came to the conclusion that based upon the absence of "water-line" that it really was empty at the time of the fire....... [Hardy reply: I don't have enough familiarity with FLIR to be able to judge levels in a propane tank, and Carlos never mentioned that. He did say that the fireball appeared to originate, not from the vault area, but from that of the kitchen. I do know that I captured video of the fireball, and when you viewed it frame by frame, you see first a sort of spherical atmospheric disturbance, then fire leaping around the outer edges of that, then the fireball. Each of these segments is only 1-3 frames long. I know little of fire analysis, but this would seem consistent with a gas explosion ... massive outburst of gas, outer edges mixing with air and igniting, then entire thing mixing... and not with high explosive, where the heat output comes as a sudden burst. ......"

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/3/00 "….The water was stored in those big plastic tanks at the rear of the building, and the coolness of the water inside showed up as a darker area. It was apparent that the water supply was shrinking, and by April 19 was almost gone. He had heard the aircraft crew talking about it and noting that the level was going down………. Fire survivor, Clive Doyle, states in Waco: A New Revelation, that the water barrels had been shot up and all the water had leaked away leaving them to collect rainwater for washing, drinking and cooking. He said that he doubted that anyone had more than 8 ounces of water a day. Who do we believe here, Doyle or Ghigliotti? ………. [Hardy replies: (1) Neither Doyle nor any other survivor has said that the water tanks (not barrels--they were more like 300 gallons apiece) were shot thru at the bottom. They talk about bullet holes roughly in their midsections. It's hard to shoot a hole through the bottom of a large water-filled drum. (2) Do you seriously think that a group of around a hundred people (depending on the date) would have survived without any water, other than what they could catch in buckets when it rained? A good rain might deposit an inch or two in a bucket... maybe enough to keep one person going for a day. (3) 8 ounces a day per person, for approx. 100 persons, equals, what, 25 gallons per day? Four half-full 300 gallon tanks equals 600 gallons, which would be depleted in 24 days at that rate. Add 12 days (electicity wasn't permanently turned off until March 12, and until then the Davidians could have run their pump to reload the water), and we're up to 36 days at that rate of consumption. Make some allowance for rainwater captures and fact that not every drum may have been hit, or hit exactly in the middle, and Carlos' statement seems quite plausible. ………. In fact, what seems beyond belief is the FBI's claim that, 51 days later, and with no electricity to run the pump for most of that time, the Davidians somehow had plenty of water and could hold out indefinitely.]......"

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/4/00 "…………….. Fair enough. What you've described sounds plausible. But, in WANR, Doyle didn't qualify his statement as to the time frame. He clearly stated that the tanks had been shot up, that all of the water had leaked out of the tanks and that they were surviving solely on rainwater they collected in buckets. Any ideas why he would say this in such unequivical terms? ………. Apparently the ATF thought the same about their propane supply as the FBI did about their water supply as seen in Richard Sherrow's fire report. ……"

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/4/00 "…… [Hardy reply: I don't have enough familiarity with FLIR to be able to judge levels in a propane tank, and Carlos never mentioned that. He did say that the fireball appeared to originate, not from the vault area, but from that of the kitchen. I do know that I captured video of the fireball, and when you viewed it frame by frame, you see first a sort of spherical atmospheric disturbance, then fire leaping around the outer edges of that, then the fireball. Each of these segments is only 1-3 frames long. I know little of fire analysis, but this would seem consistent with a gas explosion ... massive outburst of gas, outer edges mixing with air and igniting, then entire thing mixing... and not with high explosive, where the heat output comes as a sudden burst. ………… I'm no FLIR expert, either, but I do know that a "water-line" would appear due to the temperature differential between the liquid propane at the bottom and the gaseous propane above it. This is probably how Carlos determined the level in the water tanks. The propane tank Gordon described in his AFN radio interview in 1996 was empty at the time of the fire as he said and can be seen in numerous shots throughout WANR. ……… I agree with you that the fireball did not originate from atop the pantry and that it is most likely a propane BLEVE. I personally think it was a planted explosion to mask the detonation of the breaching charge by diverting everyone's attention from the explosion on the roof of the pantry and to provide plausible deniability when photos and video of the event were later analyzed. Any questions about the detonation on the roof could be easily and plausibly attributed as being a part of the propane BLEVE. ………… Interestingly, there are actually two propane tanks visible throughout WANR. The empty one that Gordon described in 1996 and the ruptured one that the govt, through Richard Sherrow's fire report and the producers of WANR say was the cause of the fireball. The ruptured one was found near the front of the concrete pad between the pantry and the chapel and the empty one was directly behind the pantry between the outer wall and the swimming pool. I believe that the ruptured one was the cause of the fireball and that it was planted and purposely detonated as I described above. …….. Read Sherrow's fire report and see if anything about the propane tank jumps out at you. ……"

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/4/00 "….Also, I’m extremely anxious to hear what you find tonight on the "guy ducking" and the "water inconsistencies." The research is invaluable in sorting out the accurate details and sources! I checked and there's nothing on the tapes I've got that show the guy ducking and the FLIR footage doesn't show the correct angle of the water tanks to be able to make any sort of a determination about the level of water in them. Dan ………. [Reply]I sorta get tired reposting the same stuff, and it seems a statement is no sooner made than it is misconstrued. The guy ducking is NOT on the FLIR, but on a media-made ordinary videotape. Carlos' remark about the level of the water is not based on FLIR made the day of the fire, but on FLIR made on the nights preceding it……"

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/5/00 "…… Carlos' remark about the level of the water is not based on FLIR made the day of the fire, but on FLIR made on the nights preceding it. ………. When you wrote the following that described the water level, I didn't think Carlos meant solely on the final day: ……… Carlos also told me, last month, that he'd seen FLIRs from nights before 4/19, and that it was apparent that the FLIR aircraft was being used to monitor the Davidians' water supply. The water was stored in those big plastic tanks at the rear of the building, and the coolness of the water inside showed up as a darker area. It was apparent that the water supply was shrinking, and by 4/19 was almost gone. He had heard the aircraft crew talking about it, and noting that the level was going down. So, essentially, they knew that thirst would force an end to the siege within a few days of 4/19.

It's not that I don't believe you or that I don't believe Carlos told this to you or that Carlos may have been tracking this on the FLIR taken in the days leading up to the final day, only that what you've described appears to be in contradiction with what Doyle testified to before Congress and that I thought this apparent contradiction should be discussed (resolved) as I wrote to Alamo-Girl in my very first post (#11) on this subject. Here's Clive Doyle's exact quote taken from Waco: A New Revelation

"We went through varying degrees of hell with the noise, music, bright lights, the children were suffering along with the adults. We were without water having had our water tanks shot up and we were living on rainwater. Whenever it would rain, people would put buckets out the window and collect rainwater and it was rationed. I doubt whether anybody more than 8 ounces a day, if that."

As I wrote in my reply #150, Doyle didn't make any reference to any time frame of when the water tanks were shot up or when they ran completely out of water and they started living on rainwater, so what you'd described sounded plausible. ………"

 

The Hole in the Bunker?

Freeper Dave Hardy 5/3/00 "….. Yep, pinning all this down is a lot of work….. To my knowledge, Rogers and Jamar were the on-scene commanders. AFAIK, this was the FBI's show, so I don't think anyone at Mt. Carmel would have "out-ranked" them. (pun intended) …… The absence of rounds on the back wall of the pantry in light of the claim of "hosing" could support my theory that it was a military mop-up, since under that theory they would need to seal off exits and protect the "bunker" from leakage during a controlled blast/fire (hole in the bunker.) ……. [Hardy reply: hate to say it, since I've argued this for hours with Gordon and others, but the evidence for a bunker blast is VERY thin. A photo of a hole atop the vault. The concrete wasn't the best, and it was subjected here to exceptionally high heat (the bodies atop the bunker are reduced to ash and calcined bone). That an explosive charge can blow a hole in concrete is obvious.... but as a logical step we first have to disprove something... can an intense fire *also* produce a hole in concrete? That takes a fire expert, and I haven't seen one on the subject. My gut reaction: if you want to kill a bunch of folks in a room, you don't start out on the first story, fight your way to the second, plant a bomb, hope that no one finds it and tips it out the window, make a retreat (with flames licking at your tails) and set it off. Instead, you start on the first floor, and throw it in the door. Preceded by a couple of grenades, if you think the people inside might object. I do acknowledge here the point made by Gordon, Jim Brannon and others: so much of what he know is clearly, coldly, demonstrably true about Waco is consistent with sheer lunacy that it we cannot discard any hypothesis for the reason that it is inconsistent with the way any sane human would have proceeded. Nonetheless, I feel compelled to apply Occam's Razor, even if it will not trim the barber…….."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/4/00 "……My personal opinion is that the purpose of the charge on the ceiling wasn't to kill everyone inside, but to cover up the times, places and circumstances of their earlier deaths. If the people inside had been killed during the days leading up to the final day, then there would be no need to fight to get inside, no worries about the people inside disposing of the breaching charge and no need to worry about leaving the area before being burned on the way out. Detonation could easily be done remotely. ………. I believe that the intent of the breaching charge was to effect the collapse of the roof by cutting the support beam on the underside so that the condition of the bodies would agree with the pre-arranged cover story for the causes of death for those whose deaths were attributed to blunt force trauma, suffocation and being buried alive from concrete and construction debris from the collapsed roof. Except that whomever placed the charge put it in the wrong place. They missed the beam by a foot and only blew an 18" - 24" hole in the roof instead of collapsing it. The device Gordon (I assume you mean Gordon Novel here) described in his 1996 AFN radio interview is called a SOF demo kit. It is a stand-off weapon that comes in different sizes for different applications and can be packed with whatever explosive is available, detasheet being one of them. The SOF demo kit uses an explosively formed penetrator to cut different materials with the largest size being 24" and is used to shatter reinforced concrete columns. The ceiling beam is really nothing more than a column turned to a horizonal position. If you check the link Alamo-Girl provided in post #144 you can see the specs and an animated-GIF of the SOF demo kit in action. …….."

Washington Post 4/18/97 Richard Leiby Jim McGee "…..The FBI has always contended that its agents never fired on April 19, even when fired upon -- that the Davidians shot themselves and each other. Autopsy reports showed that 19 Branch Davidians had gunshot wounds. But Justice Department officials now acknowledge that the ballistics work done after Waco was rudimentary at best. ………"

Washington Post 4/18/97 Richard Leiby Jim McGee "…..The FBI says an examination of the entire FLIR tape -- which runs for several hours -- would provide context and further discredit the gunfire theory. Yet the government has delayed releasing the entire tape to attorneys who filed a Freedom of Information Act suit in Arizona. The bureau also hasn't provided a full copy to The Washington Post, which first requested one in December 1996. Why the delay? "National security issues," says a Justice Department spokesman. …….."

 

 

 

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/2/00 "……Curiously, Carol Valentine's Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum is completely down, as in not there anymore. I went to check on some details relating to Phillip Henry's & Jimmy Riddle's autopsy reports and get a 404 error for any page I try. Very strange….."

Freeper Registered 5/2/00 "…Valentine's website: http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum

 

 

Ghigliotti and Waste Disposal

Freeper abwehr 5/2/00 "….New York Post 1999? Brian Blomquist "…..From 1991 to 1995, Ghigliotti, 42, was paid by the FBI as a thermal-imaging expert in an array of environmental-dumping cases, according to an FBI document. Ghigliotti "performed reliable work for the FBI," the 1995 document states. In 1993, Ghigliotti was sentenced to 18 months of unsupervised probation and fined $250 for assaulting the owner of a dump site. Ghigliotti, who had prepared documents for a Maryland environmental agency, alleged that the dump-site owner duped him by posing as a county watchman to improperly gain access to the documents……

Now this maybe of interest in relation to the above. It is from the September 1999 press releases of the US Attorney for Maryland Lynn Battaglia. The offenses occured according to an earlier press release from 1992 on……..

Here is the full text of the June 1999 US Attorney press release. The amount the companies were fined was even greater than the $2 million I previously mentioned. Note too that the FBI was involved in the investigation.

Embargoed until 5PM
June 15, 1999

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION
CONTACT LYNNE A. BATTAGLIA
(410) 209-4836

The United States Attorney for the District of Maryland, Lynne A. Battaglia, in cooperation with the Maryland Attorney General, J. Joseph Curran, Jr., the State's Attorney for Prince George's County, Jack B. Johnson and the State's Attorney for St. Mary's County, Richard D. Fritz announced today the settlement of multiple criminal and civil charges involving nearly $3.5 million in fines and claims against two trash hauling companies and four individuals on fraud and environmental charges arising out of the operation of illegal solid waste transfer stations in Prince George's and St. Mary's Counties. The settlement comes as a result of a two and a half year investigation by federal, state and local environmental enforcement agencies participating in the Prince George's County Environmental Crimes Task Force.

The defendants are: AW Stevens and Sons Waste Disposal Systems Inc, of Prince George's County; St. Mary's Disposal Systems, Inc. of St. Mary's County; Albert W. Stevens, age 67; Michael W. Stevens, age 45; Susan Goolsby Stevens, age 46; and Patrick T. Stevens, age 43, all of Anne Arundel County, Maryland.

The several state and federal settlements have multiple components. In federal court in Greenbelt, Maryland, the two companies, AW Stevens and Sons Waste Disposal Systems Inc, and St. Mary's Disposal Systems, Inc. pled guilty to a seventeen-count criminal indictment alleging Conspiracy, False Claims, False Statements and Clean Water Act violations. The companies have agreed to pay criminal fines totaling $ 1.3 million and to publish an apology for their actions in local papers. Michael W. Stevens, a Vice-President of AW Stevens and Sons, pled guilty in federal court to a single count of Filing False Claims against the United States Navy. He will be sentenced according to federal sentencing guidelines and faces a maximum penalty of 5 years in jail and a $250,000 fine. The two companies, have also entered criminal pleas in the state circuit courts: AW Stevens and Sons Waste Disposal Systems, Inc., in the Circuit Court for Prince George's County, and St. Mary's Disposal Systems, Inc. in the Circuit Court for St. Mary's County, pled guilty to violating the State Litter Control Law, Article 27, Section 468 of the Maryland Annotated Code. Three other individual defendants, Albert W. Stevens, Susan Goolsby Stevens and Patrick T. Stevens have also entered pleas under the State Litter Control Law in both Prince George's and St. Mary's Counties.

According to the stipulation of facts accompanying the state charges, the defendants operated an illegal, unapproved transfer station which involves the depositing of litter, rubbish, waste matter, or other discarded materials, for a commercial purpose, on private property which has not been designated for the disposal of such litter, for the period 1992 through 1997. The State defendants each agreed to waive the State's one year statute of limitations and pay a fine of $20,000 each, which is payable to the respective County pursuant to the Litter Control Law. As a result, pursuant to the plea agreements both Prince George's County and St. Mary's County will receive $80,000 for litter control purposes.

In addition to the criminal settlements,United States Attorney Battaglia also announced the entry of a Civil False Claims Act consent decree in federal court in which the defendant companies have agreed to pay $2 million to resolve False Claim Act liability.

According to the stipulation of facts read in Federal court as part of the companies' federal pleas, the defendants submitted false claims to the United States Navy with respect to solid waste disposal contracts the companies held with United States Navy facilities at the Patuxent River-Naval Air Station, Indian Head-Naval Ordinance Station and the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis. Specifically, the defendants operated illegal solid waste transfer stations at 7910 Penn Randall Place in Price George' County and on Route 4 in St. Mary's County.

A solid waste transfer station is a place or facility where solid waste materials are transferred from one collection vehicle to another transportation unit, for example, over the road tractor trailers, for movement to other solid waste acceptance facilities. Under Maryland Law, transfer stations must be licensed by Maryland Department of the Environment (MDE) with County review and approval, to prevent nuisance conditions.

The illegal transfer stations in this case were used to transfer trash from local haul trucks to tractor trailer trucks in order to take advantage of significantly lower waste disposal (tipping) fees charged at Virginia landfills. In the absence of legitimate local disposal receipts, the defendants submitted substituted or falsified dump tickets to the Navy along with their invoices in order to get paid for their waste disposal services.

In addition, according to the statement of facts, at the Prince George's County operation on Penn Randall Road, the AW Stevens Company knowingly discharged pollutants from their truck washing operations into a tributary of Henson's Creek in violation of the Clean Water Act. Finally, the AW Stevens Company made a false statement to the Department of Transportation with respect to hours driven by AW Stevens truck drivers.

The maximum penalties for the offenses are: for the federal conspiracy to submit false claims, imprisonment for 10 years, for each federal false claim and false statement, imprisonment for 5 years and for the federal Clean Water Act violation, imprisonment for 3 years. The defendants are also subject to fines of $250,000 per count or twice the gain from the federal offenses. The maximum penalty under the state Litter Control Law is imprisonment for five years and a fine of $25,000.

The federal defendants will be sentenced at the Greenbelt Federal Courthouse on September 21, 1999 at 9:30 a.m.

According to United States Attorney, Lynne A. Battaglia "These cases are a direct result of the excellent cooperation of several local, state and federal agencies in both counties, as well as the Prince George's County Environmental Crimes Task Force. The cases also reflect this Office's determination to work cooperatively with state and local officials to ensure that environmental laws are vigorously and fairly enforced. It is especially important that contractors at Federal facilities strictly comply with all State and local environmental and public health laws, and that they not create nuisance conditions in the communities hosting federal facilities."

The lead agencies on the investigation were the U.S. Naval Criminal Investigative Service and the Prince George's County Department of Public Health with the invaluable assistance of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Criminal Investigation Division, Federal Bureau Of Investigation, Maryland Attorney General's Office Environmental Crimes Unit and the Department of Transportation, Office of Inspector General, with the cooperation of the St Mary's County Planning and Zoning Administration, the Maryland Department of the Environment (MDE) and the cooperating agencies of the Prince George's County Environmental Crimes Task Force. The case was presented in federal court by Assistant United States Attorney James Howard of the United States Attorney's Office, Environmental Crimes Unit and in State Court, jointly, by the Attorney Generals Office, Environmental Crimes Unit and the State's Attorney Offices for Prince George's and St. Mary's County……"

April 19 and the Holocaust

 

Freeper Arizona 5/2/00 "…. I follow the news pretty faithfully, but I did miss this: Freeper aristeides 4/30/00 "….. Remember that the final assault on Waco was 50 years to the day of the final assault on the Warsaw Ghetto, which was intended to be Hitler's Birthday present. And also, as a Washington Post story from later that week that Wallaby found tells us, Clinton paid a two-hour visit to the new Holocaust Museum "late" on that day of the final assault at Waco, Apr. 19, 1993……" ……… I was born just as the Warsaw uprising was about to begin, and have had an interest in that horror for many years. I should have known the April 19th date - but I didn't pick up on it. I don't believe in 'coincidences' but there is something here that's just too 'coincidental'. And clinton visiting (paying honor to?) the Holocaust Museum that day is really chilling - really really chilling……."

April 19th Freeper Mommadooo3 and Chuck Baldwin

1529... In Germany, Lutheran leaders in fourteen cities lodged a "protest" demanding freedom of conscience and the right of minorities. The German Lutheran Reformers became known as "Protestants."

1721... Birthday of Roger Sherman, signer of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

1775.... The shot was fired that was heard round the world. It was the day those colonists drew their line in the sand at Lexington Green and Concord Bridge and America's War for Independence began

1861... Lincoln orders blockade of Confederate ports, beginning the Union side of the War Between the States.

1939... Connecticut finally approves the Bill of Rights.

1943... Warsaw Uprising: A handful of Jews attack the Nazi occupation force in the Warsaw ghetto: "a ragtag, half-starved group of Jews took 10 handguns and made asses out of the Nazis" (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership)

1989 - Freeper archy "……On 19 April 1989, 47 sailors aboard the U.S.S. Iowa, BB61, died as a fireball from a powder charge explosion burned away the lives of those inside that structure. In the aftermath, federal naval investigators, with help from the FBI, tried to *pin the blame* for the blast on one of the dead sailors, unable to defend himself. Though Navy regulations required a 3-officer board of inquiry when a *significant incident* or one that could cause further injury if repeated, a single officer instead conducted the safey review. Having been the officer in charge of refurbishment of the Iowa's ammunition while commanding the Naval Weapons support Center at Crane, Indiana where the powder bags had been refurbished, inspected and repacked, Captain Joseph Micelli not surprisingly found that the ammunition prepeared under his supervision was flawless, and that one of the dead sailors murdered his crewmates in a fit of jealousy over a failed homosexual affair. The lie was caught, and the slandered sailor's reputation restored, but neither he nor his shipmates have yet been brought back to life....." and Freeper aristeides adds "…..On the Iowa, do please remember, A-G, Marie Louise Hagen's dubious role in the suit by Clayton Hartwig's family. She is married to a naval officer -- she really should know better….."

1993... Waco: The "bad boys" of federal paramilitary troops serve a search warrant with 100 armed agents; the BATF had previously refused an invitation to search peacefully. The Branch Davidians turn out to have fewer arms per capita than the average Texan home. The BATF claimed "we were outgunned," despite having brought helicopter gunships, armored vehicles and fully automatic weapons to the siege. The siege ends in tragedy as the Davidians' rickety home, lit by kerosene lantern with bales of hay at the walls to stop incoming bullets burns to the ground after tanks start punching holes in the walls.

1995... Murrah Building in Oklahoma bombed, purportedly in retaliation for the Waco massacre. 136 people killed; no BATF were on site, however, as they'd taken an unannounced day off.

Associated Press 4/22/93 Harry Rosenthal "……A museum of a different kind, stark and disturbing, was dedicated today as a memorial to the millions slaughtered in World War II by a Germany determined to eliminate all Jews. Before world leaders and Holocaust survivors, speakers implored, "Never again." The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, a $ 168 million exhibition in the heart of monumental Washington, is an irrefutable answer to the revisionists who say the Holocaust never happened………. "I believe that this museum will touch the life of everyone who enters, and leave everyone forever changed," said Clinton, who spent two private hours late Monday touring the museum. ……… The museum traces the rise of Adolf Hitler from the book-burnings of his early days in the 1930s as Germany's chancellor, through the hate-driven hoodlums in 1938 attacking and arresting Jews on "The Night of Broken Glass," to the killing centers of Auschwitz, Majdanek, Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzec and Treblinka, and the inmates' liberation by the stunned troops of the United States and its allies………"

Associated Press 4/22/93 Harry Rosenthal "……The cloud of "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia hovered over the proceedings The United States is struggling over whether to take more aggressive action to stop the killings in Bosnia. Wiesel, during his speech, shook his fist and told Clinton, who was seated nearby, "Something, anything, must be done." Clinton, the first American president born after World War II, said the West must live forever with the knowledge that "far too little was done" to stop the Holocaust. He condemned oppression and murder now going on in Bosnia and elsewhere. "We are reminded again and again how fragile are the safeguards of civilization," he said. Bishop Krister Stendahl, in an opening prayer, called the museum "this memorial of the obscenest of deaths and devastation." "I for one, as a Christian, pray that we in the churches be rudely and finally awakened to our age-old complicity in the ultimate crime of the Holocaust," he said. "We say never again, ever." ……"

Transcript of White House Press Briefing by George Stephanopoulos 4/20/93 "…..

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Why don't we just take a step even farther back from that and look at the whole sequence of events on the contact between the Justice Department and the White House. As you know and as we've said, the President spoke with the Attorney General on Sunday, Sunday afternoon. They had a good discussion, about 15 minutes. The Attorney General informed the President of what she wanted to do. He raised no objections. Obviously, she had the implicit authority from the President to go forward. He raised no objections. She went forward. They had a discussion of a general nature about the incident.

Again, yesterday morning around 11:00 a.m., the President spoke with the Attorney General again. They had a brief discussion over what was happening in Waco. As you know, this was before the fire broke out at the compound. And I think that was why there was some -- just some confusion. I think that she was confusing in her minds before and after the fire, not the actual day when they spoke.

Then there was a number of contacts at a number of different levels in the White House yesterday afternoon between the Justice Department and the White House. They were informing us of their decisions, what they would like to do. There was an FBI briefing in Waco. The Attorney General had her press conference. The President then issued a statement after that.

Frankly, yesterday afternoon, you know, there was a fair amount of confusion over exactly what was happening on the ground in Waco, and I think that we wanted to be very careful not to have the President say anything until we had a much better sense of what was actually happening on the ground. Once we were fairly clear on what was happening on the ground in Waco, the President issued a statement. He spoke with the Attorney General again yesterday evening.

Q At what hour was that?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: It was quite late. I believe it was after he returned from the Holocaust Museum. He took a tour of the Holocaust Museum last night.

Q And he went out to dinner.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I believe briefly. Yes, he went to dinner and then he spoke with the Attorney General last night. I don't know the exact time; I think it was relatively late......

Q Did he ever talk with Webb Hubbell yesterday, last night, or this morning?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Not to my knowledge, no.

Q Was Webb Hubbell the point man for the White House?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Webb Hubbell is the general White House Liaison and several people talked to Webb. The Attorney General was running the operation.

Q Did he tell her that she should sleep well, that she had done a good job? Or he just tell her that she should get some sleep?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I think sleep well -- done a good job -- I don't know the exact words. I think that sounds right.

Q I mean, sleep well has implications as to conscience and whether she should feel badly about it or not.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, I mean, I think everybody feels badly when you have a situation when -- ……

Q George, when did the President know that they were going to use tear gas? Was it before the assault on the compound?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I just don't know. I don't believe he was given a lot of detail on exactly how the operation would go. I just don't know.

Q Along that point, George, can you say whether the plan was presented to the President by the Attorney General as a way to end the standoff one way or the other yesterday?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I think it was presented as a way to increase the pressure on those in the compound and, we all hoped, as a way to move some of those out and bring it in -- it wasn't presented as tomorrow is D-Day, this is it.

Q Is the President satisfied that, A, he had all this relevant information necessary to make a decision, and B, that Janet Reno had all the relevant information necessary to make a decision?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Oh, I think he's satisfied that they were acting on the best advice and the best information they had, and he's not second-guessing it in any way whatsoever.

Q George, was there a 12-hour gap between conversations between the President and the Attorney General? In other words, they spoke at 11:00 a.m. and they didn't speak again until Clinton got back from dinner at --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I think that's likely, yes…….

Q We were told this morning that the President may have spoken -- a chance that he may have spoken with Webb. Do you know if that's true or not?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I think there's a chance he may have. I don't believe he did, but I think there's certainly a chance that he may have at some point. I don't believe he did. I think that the last contact he had during the day yesterday directly with the Justice Department was the 11:00 a.m. phone call with the Attorney General. But the White House was fully informed on a minute-to-minute basis of what was happening in Waco and what was happening at the Justice Department. …….

Q Considering how little was known about what was going on inside the compound and, even now, how little is known, why is Washington calling this a mass suicide?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, I think that knowing what we know now and given all of the actions of David Koresh before and during, it is painfully clear that those there were under his control.

Q It's stretching it a little bit where the kids are concerned, though, isn't it, George?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I think that that is an entirely different matter. I mean, I think that David Koresh must bear responsibility for the deaths of those children, absolutely. But he clearly was intent on creating some kind of an apocalyptic incident, and that's what he did.

Q You're still operating completely on assumption, right? I mean, you have no evidence, or you know of no evidence that this was mass suicide.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: We have evidence that those inside the compound set fire to the compound, which led to the deaths of those inside.

Q I didn't quite hear it. This might be Ann's question, I didn't quite hear it. But at what time did Clinton himself put out a statement on this? I know Dee Dee said some stuff on this at 6:00 p.m., but the President put out --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: At 6:35 p.m., 6:40 p.m.

Q Right after the evening news went on the air?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: No, right when we had all the information. We were working on it.

Q Dee Dee confirmed this morning that the investigation the President is going to announce is going to be an administration-run investigation. Why not have someone from the outside to make sure that it's not colored by those who would have a political stake, particularly those at the ATF whose actions have already been --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I think that clearly the ATF and the Justice Department will bear responsibility for the investigation. That's not to rule out, as is often in investigations like this, having some sort of independent involvement as well. But it will be run by the Treasury and Justice.

Q Are you confident that you will not have any problem getting --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Absolutely.

Q George, did the President reach out to anybody else to get advice after the meeting with Janet Reno? And who else in the White House sat in on that meeting? Anyone else from Justice?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I don't believe anybody else was there at the time. It was a phone call on Monday, it wasn't a meeting.

Q Sunday.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Sunday. It was a phone call, it wasn't a meeting. I believe he might have been there with Bruce, but beyond that, I think he just talked to the Attorney General.

Q George, you said that in that phone call, she said that we want to go in and take action, as you said, that will force him out. What did he think she was talking about? If he didn't know about tear gas, what exactly was his idea of what he was approving?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I think he was approving an action to increase the pressure on --

Q It didn't matter how she did that?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: No, no. I mean –

Q What information did he have in terms of how this would proceed? Presumably he would have wanted to know, not minute- by-minute, but in a general sense --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I think he knew that this was the recommendation of those on the ground and the recommendation of the law enforcement agencies. I just don't know --

Q What is "this" -- when you say that "this" was the recommendation --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: The action to increase pressure. I don't know exactly what he was told -- whether he was going to be told that the tank was going to go up to the left wall and punch a hole in the window, or whether he was just told generally that they were moving forward in a way that would increase the pressure. I just don't know.

Q It's hard to imagine him not asking, though.

Q that Janet Reno presented him with as her best advice about what they should go forward with, he would have agreed?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: He was -- he did ask some general questions about the advice and recommendation he gave. At the same time -- and I would repeat -- that this was based on the unanimous recommendation of the law enforcement agencies involved. ….

Q But is he accepting it as his decision as well as hers, or is he saying it's her decision? There's a difference.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: As a matter of fact, it was her decision. He did not object to that decision. He clearly takes full responsibility.

Q George, this briefing has gone on just a little over 15 minutes, and as you can see a lot of things can be exchanged. What exactly did they spend 15 minutes talking about if it was just very general? That's a long period of time in a phone conversation.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: It is an awful long phone conversation. It was a very important phone conversation. I think Brit has asked that we take the question, and I've said that I would.

Q One of the things Reno said last night is that the buck stops here. I think that was her direct quotation. Does the President agree with that in this case?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: The President says he accepts full responsibility. I think what the Attorney General was saying is that she made a decision, that she's going to accept all the responsibility that comes to her. And she's not shrinking from that at all, but neither is the President.

Q At any point in the conversation last night between the President and the Attorney General or this morning, did she ever offer her a resignation?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Not to my knowledge.

Q Even before the fire was out yesterday, there were some Republicans on Capitol Hill calling for an investigation. Is the White House at all concerned about the timing of those requests trying to make political hay out of this situation?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: No. And I don't want to cast any questions about the motives of those who are requesting investigation. We want an investigation, and we'll have a full and complete investigation. …….

Q George, can you remind us what the President was doing all yesterday afternoon, where he was, and what meetings he was involved in?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I'll have to try and remember. He had a series of meetings with different members of the staff during the afternoon. He was certainly monitoring the situation in Waco and getting periodic reports on that as well. He did see some on CNN as well. I believe he saw a fair amount of the FBI press briefing as well.

Q And those reports would have come to him from Mack McLarty, would they -- do you think?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Mack talked to him, Bruce talked to him, I talked to him.

Q George, to follow Helen's question, in their conversation this morning did they discuss at all her statement last night in response to the question about whether she would resign? Did he say, I don't know why you felt the need to say that? I'm here to reassure you that you don't have to do this? Did that come up at all?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I don't know if it even came up that specifically. I know that the bulk of the conversation was discussing where do we go from here and what form the investigation -- ……

Q Were these outside experts that they were consulting with, or experts within the ATF and the FBI?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: You'd have to ask them. I'm just not sure. I know that there were several experts.

Q And also, why weren't there replacements for these people? Is the unit that small?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Again, I think it is a very small highly-specialized unit. But I think it's one of the kinds of things that the investigation will examine.

Q George, isn't there a factor here involving the FBI Director? Normally, a president, when he wants to get information, doesn't only asks the Attorney General. I know the chain of command. But presidents talk to their FBI directors. In this case, throughout this entire siege, he has not felt that he could pick up the phone and talk to Bill Sessions, who is from Waco, and get expertise from him on what to do and what not to do?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: I think he talked to the FBI Director well in the beginning of the situation when it first broke out in Waco. At the same time, the Attorney General bears the ultimate responsibility and he was getting fully briefed from the Attorney General.

Q Don't you think the ambiguous situation that Director Sessions is in has some impact on the way the President is briefed and on the way that all of this evolved?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Not at all. I mean, it's perfectly appropriate that he be briefed by the Attorney General and that the Attorney General has supervisory authority over the FBI Director, and that's following the chain of command.

THE PRESS: Thank you .

END 1:03 P.M. EDT ……"

Pattern of Deaths concerning Waco

[For more information on these and sources, please click on the "Body Count Research" section on the Downside Legacy.]

This death is one among several mysterious deaths relating to Waco – other than the Davidians of course. We are looking for any patterns or clues that might help us understand what actually happened.

Carlos Ghigliotti – FLIR investigator, decomposed body found 4/29/00 – claimed gunfire on FLIR

Paul Wilcher – attorney/investigator theorist, decomposed body found 6/22/93 – first to claim Delta involvement at Waco

Vince Foster – suicide 7/20/93 - was involved in the government handling of Waco, was very troubled about it and at some point said ‘the FBI lied’

Retired CIA Director William Colby – died in a canoe accident 5/6/96 – he had provided information to McNulty.

Eddie Pack – died a mysterious death from a burst of microwave energy causing cancer, he supplied footage to McNulty early on

Revered Roger Howard, his 17 year old son Manual Howard and James Ray Dobbins – died 1/14/94 – they were hit and struck by a car with 2 men in it. The accident was witnessed by a lady who called for an ambulance. The 2 men fled the scene. Other investigators have been followed.

Partisan Over a year ago - Fall of 1998 (Glass interviews McNulty) Freeper Ada Coddington 9/29/99 " http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37f23d746afd.htm

"…. GLASS: Well, what the hell is going on?

McNULTY: …… But likewise I’m sure that if a reporter from the New York Times asked the current director of the CIA was Colby involved in bringing authoritative information to us in order to expose the FBI – He’d say "I have no idea." And he might be right. But people died. Mr. Colby if indeed he died as a result of his involvement with us and not for some other reason is not the only individual who died during the process of the making of this film.

GLASS: Who else died?

McNULTY: There’s a gentleman by the name of Eddie Pack who supplied us with footage in the early stages of my investigation. He died a very mysterious death from exposure to a rather large burst of microwave energy, which dealt him a very serious blow called cancer. Microwave energy can be used to erase videotapes from long distances, which is what happened in this circumstance. It appears that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Eddie had a habit of intercepting downlink material off of satellites. He came up with some very unusual videotape that was made originally by television networks regarding the events at Waco. Never saw the light of day on the air.

GLASS: How old was Eddie when he died?

McNULTY: Oh gosh, I’m not sure. I think he was in his mid fifties, early fifties. He wound up receiving very serious radiation burns in his esophagus and his throat as a result of his exposure to this microwave energy. They ulcerated and he couldn’t eat. Over a period of time something less than 12 months the ulcers became cancerous. What really got him was the fact that he had been so irradiated that he actually developed cancer of the bone and it spread rapidly throughout his body and in a matter of days he was gone. There were three others men also killed. Actually four but in two separate instances.

One was an "accident" that involved three of his friends that he was supposed to have been with....."

Steve Willis, Robert Williams, Todd McKeahan, Conway LeBleu – died in the 2/28/93 raid at Waco. – Clinton acknowledged that three were former bodyguards to him, but Wordnetdaily confirmed through the Little Rock ATF office that all four had been. Three were killed by head wounds, all were treated by a private physician.

Freeper Mr_Magoo 5/3/00 "…… Here is a bit more on them that I dug up a while back...

If you look at: http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/page/w_catalo.html . Scroll down to Documents, Doc 20a, Doc 20b, Doc 20c, and Doc 20d. Those are autopsy diagrams of the 4 BATF agents. Pay close attention to the wound placements on diag. c+d. Not only are the wounds damn near identical, they are classic execution placement. ( behind the right ear through the head, exiting on the left cheek) Doc 20a wounds are to the back of the head. Placement suggests friendly fire.
Next, look at: http://terminal-frost.simplenet.com/wacorep.html . about 3/4 of the way down you will find this tidbit: (bold highlights mine)
Four ATF agents were killed in the gunfight, and numerous wounded. Dan Hartnett, associate director of the ATF, claimed that the ATF suffered heavy casualties because of strict rules of engagement that prohibit shooting without a definite target. "We had to wait for a target because there are so many women and children inside," he said. But broadcast video of the raid shows agents exercising poor fire control, firing over vehicles with little or no view of what they were shooting at, at a rate of two rounds per second [11,27].
The ATF's concern for the women and children inside was further demonstrated by their use of the "9 mm. Cyclone" round in their submachine guns. This highly-penetrating round is available only to law-enforcement special operations teams and the military, and is specifically designed to cut through body armor [17].
Two separate federal sources told Soldier of Fortune magazine that such a round was removed from a wounded ATF agent, and that many, if not most, of the ATF casualties resulted from "friendly fire." [17] Newsweek also reported that a federal source involved in the Waco situation said that "there is evidence that supports the theory of friendly fire," and that during the assault "there was a huge amount of cross-fire." [8] Furthermore, in the released video footage of the raid, there is little or no evidence of return fire from the Davidians.

Note that one of the agents (diag. Doc 20b above) died from a chest wound that cut the aorta. All BATF agents wore body armor that day. Also, in the Congressional hearing in 1995, it was stated that the BATF used 9mm Cyclone ammo……"

 

Sheriff Jack Harwell 3/00 died of a heart attack, mediator with the Davidians

Tribune-Herald reprinted by World Net Daily News 3/20/00 Tommy Witherspoon "….. Representatives from law enforcement agencies around the state will be in Waco Monday for the funeral of longtime McLennan County Sheriff Jack Harwell. ……….. Harwell, sheriff since 1973, died Thursday morning at his residence in Robinson from an apparent heart attack. He was 71. ………. The service for Harwell will be at 1 p.m. Monday at First Baptist Church of Waco, which has seating capacity for 6,000 people, Simons said. Harwell served in the Navy in 1944, so military and law enforcement honor guards will participate in the service.. ......"

Dallas Morning News 3/17/00 AP "……Sheriff Jack Harwell, whose 40 years with McLennan County included mediating negotiations between David Koresh and FBI agents during the 1993 Branch Davidian siege, died Thursday of an apparent heart attack in his Robinson home. He was 71. Sheriff Harwell, whose tenure as a sheriff was the third-longest in the state, was nine months from retirement. He became sheriff in 1973 after the death of Sheriff C.C. Maxey. The flags at the McLennan Courthouse were at half-staff Thursday, and Sheriff Harwell's deputies placed black tape over their badges. Co-workers described him as a man who always had the time to listen. …….The sheriff was thrust into the forefront during the 1993 Branch Davidian siege, serving as a mediator between Mr. Koresh, whom he had known for years, and FBI negotiators. During that time, he fended off criticism that his department did too little to investigate child-abuse allegations against Mr. Koresh. ……"

Edward Allard – untimely stroke, FLIR expert for Davidians

St. Louis Post Dispatch 2/18/00 William Freivogel Terry Ganey "….. Caddell says that if the flashes are gunfire, Danforth probably would want to call back FBI agents who have been questioned before and ask them more questions, this time under oath. Some may be given a lie-detector test. Edward Allard, the Branch Davidians' expert on infrared systems, suggested that Danforth might use his power to call a grand jury to deepen his Waco investigation. "Some people could be facing the loss of their pensions -- and prison," Allard said. ……."

St. Louis Post Dispatch 2/18/00 William Freivogel Terry Ganey "….. A last-minute change in plans for the Foot Hood test makes it more likely a flash will turn up on the tape. Allard, the Branch Davidians' expert, persuaded Danforth's infrared expert to include an exotic gun that emits a big flash -- the Mark-19 grenade launcher. Allard wanted the gun included because it can fire 375 repetitions a minute. He believes he sees flashes on the 1993 tape that repeat at that rate and he thinks grenades from the launcher started the fire that destroyed the complex. The draft plan for the test, drawn up by the British firm Vector Data Systems, did not include the Mark-19. The government at first objected to its inclusion because there is no record that any government agents had been issued the weapon at Waco, although FBI agents have trained with it. Pentagon officials also questioned whether the Mark-19 could safely fire the 40 mm flashbangs that Allard wants to test. Allard dismissed this question, citing the government's own specifications. In the end, it was included in the test plan……"

Radio Interview - Alex Jones Show 4/19/00 An Interview with Gordon Novel, Investigator for Ramsey Clark, Waco Branch Davidian Attorney. ...Alex Jones Radio Show, 5.085/6.890 Shortwave, 4/18/00 (Re-aired) .....
GN: Well, they set up a test, where the protocol for the test was to bar everybody but the so-called FLIR experts. Well, our original FLIR expert was Edward Allard and (Michael) Caddell comes in and hires him to do some more work on the thing. As a result, none of us are allowed to inspect or look at, or to observe it being made - all the normal things you would do with evidence -
AJ: Hold on, we know Allard's good. Why he's overlooking the test. He was there wasn't he?
GN: He had a stroke.
AJ: He couldn't make it....."

Freeper archy 5/3/00 "…….I've got two observations, which I'll post seperately. The first refers to the references to the *Mark 19 Grenade Launcher* used in the FLIR tests by Allard. For those not familiar with the weapon, this is a 40mm autonatic cannon, not a shoulder-fired weapon like the M79 grenade launcher of Vietnam or the current M203, usually found mounted under the barrel of an M16 or M4 rifle. I figured a picture and some tech data would be worthwhile to give folks an idea of just what sort of weaponry was being fired into that church.

Manufacturer: Saco Defense Industries
Length: 43.1 inches (109.47 centimeters)
Weight: Gun: 72.5 pounds (32.92 kilograms)
Cradle (MK64 Mod 5): 21.0 pounds (9.53 kilograms)
Tripod: 44.0 pounds (19.98 kilograms)
Total: 137.5 pounds (62.43 kilograms)
Muzzle velocity: 790 feet (240.69 meters) per second
Bore diameter: 40mm
Maximum range: 2200 meters
Maximum effective range: 1600 meters
Rates of fire:
Cyclic: 325-375 rounds per minute
Rapid: 60 rounds per minute
Sustained: 40 rounds per minute
Unit Replacement Cost: $13,758

Features: The MK19 40mm machine gun, MOD 3 is an air-cooled, disintegrating metallic link-belt fed, blowback operated, fully automatic weapon and is crew transportable over short distances with limited amounts of ammunition. It can fire a variety of 40mm grenades. The M430 HEDP 40mm grenade will pierce armor up to 2 inches thick, and will produce fragments to kill personnel within 5 meters and wound personnel within 15 meters of the point of impact. Associated components are:
MK64 Cradle Mount, MOD 5; M3 Tripod Mount; and the AN/TVS-5 Night Vision Sight. The MK19 also mounts in the up-gunned weapons station of the LVTP7A1 model of the AAV and vehicle ring mounts.

Background: The MK19 was originally developed to provide the U.S. Navy with an effective riverine patrol weapon in Vietnam.
A Product Improvement Program was initiated in the late 1970s resulting in the MK19 Mod 3......."

Freeper Who is John Galt? 5/3/00 adds "…....although FBI agents have trained with it. ….. Ask yourself: why are Federal police training with a fully-automatic, armor-piercing grenade launcher? 375 rounds-per-minute (MORE THAN SIX ROUNDS PER SECOND)? Any one of which will kill EVERYONE within 17 feet of impact? Is this for real, or are we watching Men in Black? ……("To protect and to serve" - you betcha!) …..I seem to remember that FBI agents (at one time) were required to have a legal or accounting background. The requirements appear to have changed a bit... "

Washington Post 4/18/97 Richard Leiby Jim McGee "….."A portrait of Jesus stands guard over the big-screen TV in Edward Allard's living room in Springfield. A lifelong Catholic, Allard is a man of conviction and certitude. He also holds a doctorate in physics and is a former supervisor of the Department of Defense's night vision laboratory at Fort Belvoir. He knows what he is seeing on that tape -- he says the weapons signatures are so clear as to eliminate all doubt. He cues up the FLIR video and plays it in slow motion, frame by frame, each frame representing a 30th of a second. "Right there, something terrible happens," he says, pausing the tape. He's pointing to an area on the screen where he believes a team of men is firing into the burning cult compound. He has counted 44 distinct flashes in that area. He also points out bursts near an Army M-60 tank that's destroying the back of the compound -- "an infantry-tank maneuver," as he sees it. Where are the shooters? They aren't visible, Allard says, because their bodies are roughly the same temperature as the ground -- FLIR would not distinguish between the people and the background. They'd fade to gray………… Allard, 63, worked for the Defense Department and as a thermal-image consultant for more than 30 years. He has agreed to serve as an expert witness in a civil lawsuit being waged by attorneys representing the estates and families of dead Branch Davidians, who say the government acted recklessly, negligently and perhaps criminally at Waco……."

 

Fred Zegel, blood poisoning

Freeper blackcat 5/3/00 "….Mike McNulty was interviewed today on the Alex Jones show, as was Mr. Hardy. McNulty said that another man, Fred Seqel, who had been working with Allard on the FLIR tape analysis, was at the Ft. Hood FLIR test a few weeks ago. After viewing the test, he left to go to an auction. There he collapsed and was rushed to the hospital. His blood was full of toxins - they diagnosed blood poisoning. He was on an IV of strong antibiotics for ten days and nearly died. He had a mark on his leg where the toxins entered. …."

Alex Jones Radio Show, Interview of Michael McNulty 5/4/00 Freeper blackcat "……An Interview of Michael McNulty, Producer of WACO, A New Revelation. Alex Jones Radio Show, May 3, 2000

MM: And at this particular point, I would say this: the timing of Mr. Ghigliotti's death, the timing of Ed Allard's stroke and one other issue: Fred Segal, who is Ed Allard's counterpart on the Branch Davidian team, a well-known FLIR expert, also had an incident. He went and attended the test at Ft. Hood on March the 19th. After departing, he went to upstate New York for an auction he was attending and collapsed - unconscious. He was taken to the hospital. He had a high fever and it seemed he was suffering from blood poisoning. They treated him for ten days with intravenous, high-dosage, high-powered antibiotics. And he did recover.

But those three incidents: Ghigliotti's death, Allard's stroke and Segal's bout with blood poisoning - - had it just been left unattended, it would have killed him, is very curious and very disturbing. So I am very anxious to find out what had happened to Mr. Ghigliotti and I'm hopeful that it was natural and that this was all just circumstances. But, you know, it really leaves me uncomfortable thinking that all these circumstances could happen to the same group of men who are central to the investigation of the FLIR, all in one particular time frame. It's just a lot of coincidences.

AJ: And they tested Segal for anthrax.

MM: No, if it had been anthrax, Mr. Segal would be dead by now.

AJ: Well, I don't know if you saw the Clinton Chronicles and some of those other films?

MM: He would also have symptoms, also.

AJ: Yea, exactly, just right off the bat, when you mentioned the Segal thing, I had been hearing about it, but I hadn't confirmed it, so I didn't talk about it. I heard that, but that protracted sickness, at a low dosage level, some of the folks around Clinton, exposing some of his drug dealing, came up with anthrax..

MM: Segal was definitely blood poisoning. He was not exhibiting any other symptoms. I saw him this weekend, he's fine.

AJ: Well, I understand. You're saying he probably would have died if he wouldn't have been put in the hospital. It's blood poisoning.

MM: Right.

AJ: Did they find out what type of blood poisoning?

MM: All they knew was that there appeared to be a site at which the bacteria entered on his leg. Hey, in Texas, with all the creepy, crawling critters, you can contract blood poisoning, the kind that leaves that wonderful red line that goes from the wound up towards your heart. The standard, everyday, it-will-kill-you-dead if you don't treat it blood poisoning.

AJ: Interesting. And he got sick right after he left Ft. Hood.

MM: Shortly after.

AJ: Oh. Oh, well it was just accidental.

MM: Well, I don't know anything more than you do. (laughs)

AJ: I hear you.

MM: Let's take some calls..... "

Washington Post 4/18/97 Richard Leiby Jim McGee "…..""That was a reflection," he said, staring at flashes that Allard and the others claimed were gunfire. At another purported burst of bullets, Zegel said, "You are looking at exhaust there." The second time, he agreed to watch the film in a different setting -- at Allard's house, on Wednesday evening. Sitting in the living room, the former colleagues went over the tape frame-by-frame for four hours. Zegel's position gradually changed. He didn't agree totally with Allard, but he started to see things differently. He even saw things that Allard hadn't seen. "They look like men to me," Zegel said, indicating dark spots behind a tank. It looked as if people were dropping out of the tank, to assume firing positions: what Allard had called an infantry-tank maneuver. "In one instance, where the guys drop from tanks, that was firing," Zegel said. "There was no reflection." By the end of the night, Allard and Zegel had found a couple instances to agree on. In four spots on the tape, they disagreed. Adding no certainty except this: Everyone sees things differently………. "

Washington Weekly 4/28/97 Freeper amom "...Seeking the definitive opinion, our intrepid reporters took the FLIR tape to the night vision lab at Fort Belvoir. There four experts (employed by the U.S. Government) promptly identified the flashes as sun reflections. They also showed it to Fred Zegel, whom they describe as "one of the top FLIR readers in the world." ………… According to the Post reporters, "Zegel knows and greatly respects Ed Allard," his former colleague at the night vision lab. ……… To cut a long story short, after watching the tape in his office, Zegel identified several of the flashes others had called gunfire as such things as reflections and exhaust. Later, however, when he watched the tape with Allard, at the latter's home, "Zegel's position gradually changed." ……. Pointing to some dark spots behind a tank, Zegel said, "They look like men to me," adding that it looked as though men were coming out of the tank to assume firing positions..." From here Published in the Apr. 28, 1997 issue of The Washington Weekly

St Louis Post-Dispatch 10/17/99 Freeper amom"...Fred Zegel, former infrared experts at Fort Belvoir, Va., home of the Pentagon's night vision laboratory... Zegel, who may have read more battlefield FLIR tapes than anyone, had his doubts about Allard's analysis at first. But he now agrees that gunfire is the most likely explanation of flashes. Allard and Zegel are expected to testify for the Branch Davidians in the wrongful death case. They played the tape and explained their findings to a reporter last week..." from here "Government bets that technology will show agents didn't fire in Waco" by William H. Freivogel
("St. Louis Post-Dispatch", October 17, 1999)

Washington Post 4/18/97 Richard Leiby Jim McGee "….."I've always said that FLIR is one of the Army's most dangerous weapons," Fred Zegel says. "Because you can read so much into it." ……. Zegel is acknowledged to be one of the top FLIR readers in the world. For more than two decades, he was the in-house expert at Fort Belvoir. Any close calls, show the tape to Fred. ……… Zegel, 63, belongs in a novel by Tom Clancy. A mountain of a man with wild gray hair and a gentle manner, he is retired from the Army and working for Radian Inc., a defense contractor in Alexandria. Zegel knows and greatly respects Ed Allard, the scientist in the documentary. They were once colleagues at the night vision lab. ……Zegel watched the tape in two sessions, the first time at regular speed, in his office. ….."

 

And here is one I find particularly curious in light of the Carlos Ghigliotti death:

Kenneth Trentadue – found dead in his cell 8/95.

(Update: THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE, Sat. July 11, 1998 - states M.E. says Trentadue death "suicide"!). ….Many Americans who are familiar with the Trentadue case see a chilling similarity between Officer Terry Yeakey's "suicide" and Kenneth Trentadue's. Especially when each occurred in such close proximity to the other, in and around El Reno and Oklahoma City, AFTER the bombing….. Like Terry Yeakey, Kenneth Trentadue, (although smaller) was also a powerfully-built man. He lifted weights regularly, had a 19-inch neck and was a street-fighter with street savvy. In short, he knew how to take care of himself…..And many also wonder why a man re-incarcerated for violating his parole would REQUEST solitary confinement….. http://www.myfreeoffice.com/pef/OKCa.html

Arkansas ChronicleTom Winters and A.J. Hardcastle Freeper Leper Messiah "……… [snip]"The sequence of exposure of the pictures is tracked by 'frame numbers' that appear on the edge of the film. Even after the negatives are cut into strips and placed in plastic sleeves, you can always tell which order they were shot in by looking at the frame number just beneath the actual image," said the Navy analyst. "Those frame numbers are put on the film by the manufacturer, not the camera." …….. It is this "image sequence" that creates the most problems for the Justice Department. When you take the pictures, in the sequence that the government claims they are on the roll and compare it to the testimony, and, to other pictures on the same roll, the Alice-in-Wonderland world of the government defense to a murder case becomes shockingly apparent.

……..According to the negatives, the sun had risen an hour early, just in time for prison guard Freeman to take his first picture of the cell. His camera, a Minolta with a built-in flash, failed to flash on the first shot in the cell. And through the vertical slit window at the back of the cell, you can see daylight, trees and grass. "Another picture after that one shows a clearly illuminated outdoor scene," said the expert. "Somehow, the sun set again. Additional pictures, but with higher frame numbers, show total darkness outside the very same window. There's just no way the sun was going up and down. It's the pictures that are all wrong."

…….Pressed for an explanation as to how such images could be faked, the image expert explained. He described the process whereby a computer with two "peripherals," a negative scanner and a film output printer were used to fabricate a roll of film that appears to be "original," but really isn't. "What someone obviously has done is this: they had the two rolls of film all along. And I would guess that there is surely something on one or both of those rolls they don't want anyone to see. So, they simply used a common computer tool, a 'negative scanner,' to import the negative images into a graphics program.

……..Government lawyers also produced the faked negatives for copying onto CD-ROM's. The analyst said that there are tell-tale "artifacts" on the digital imagery that further confirms the negatives are "second generation," but would not offer specific details on the methodology used to identify the fake photos. Arkansas Chronicle was able to obtain a set of the CD-ROMs and have them analyzed at the same time as the prints were analyzed.

………The analyst said that the most damning piece of evidence is that one of the pictures released earlier by government lawyers somehow does not appear on the "roll" that the FBI produced. "It's sort of an obscure shot. But the point is, the picture is not on the roll of their negatives, and without question, it was indeed shot between two frames that I can absolutely identify on the roll they released." Other evidence suggests, he said, that the roll they produced was in fact shot from two different cameras with "two different lens systems."

……."Since the case record would indicate that the FBI had custody of these negatives for several years," said the imagery expert, "that's where I would be looking in terms of identifying who manipulated this imagery. It took really expensive equipment to produce these fakes and not a lot of people have it." Contacted again shortly before press time, the expert would neither confirm nor deny that he is one of two imagery experts now examining video tape of aerial FBI infrared photography from Waco for a U.S. Congressional committee headed by Rep. Dan Burton.

…….According to court records in the Trentadue case, the Department of Justice's Office of Inspector General has indeed been investigating Bureau of Prisons and Federal Bureau of Investigation agents for complicity in criminal misconduct in the Trentadue case. It was in the process of having the pictures and CD-ROM's examined that a chilling allegation surfaced about the capabilities of the FBI's lab, especially its ability to alter physical evidence such as photographs, video and audio tape. A person recently employed as an FBI lab technician, in the process of approaching a public interest group called "Judicial Watch," claims to be able to prove that the alleged audio tapes of Branch Davidians talking about setting fires in the Waco compound are as fake as the Trentadue pictures.

Arkansas ChronicleTom Winters and A.J. Hardcastle Freeper Leper Messiah "……… ……..When shown the Trentadue pictures, the former FBI worker claimed to personally know the persons responsible for faking the negatives. Arkansas Chronicle was able to confirm that one of the persons named does indeed work in the section of the FBI lab responsible for processing photographic evidence.

…….The former lab worker could not produce any documentation of claims of falsifying evidence and when pressed for details on the Waco case said, "I hope to be able to file a lawsuit that involves a lot of misconduct in the lab and I don't want to say anything at this time that might jeopardize that." The former technician expressed great fear of the FBI saying, "When you mess with them, they mess back." "The FBI can compete with the best of Hollywood special effects shops," said the former lab worker. "I wouldn't really believe anything controversial that they produce." The former worker claims to have walked in on one session in "an editing bay," where "forward looking infrared (FLIR) imagery" was being edited. "I recognized the scene as Waco." Interestingly, the interviews with the former worker occurred months prior to public information surfacing about the existence of the now controversial video tapes found in FBI possession. "The particular suite they were in has extensive special effects and electronic editing capability," said the source. "While I cannot honestly say I saw them alter evidence, I can tell you that I was present on more than one occasion where both audio and video tapes from Waco were being 'played' in editing suites where the only logical reason for anybody being there was to alter or edit original footage. If you just wanted to play the stuff there are a lot better places to do it than an editing suite." Burton's committee has already learned that some of the Waco video tapes are in fact missing part of the audio tracks where critical conversations between agents are thought to have been recorded……."

Freeper Covenantor 5/2/00 "….

"The FBI can compete with the best of Hollywood special effects shops," said the former lab worker.

"I wouldn't really believe anything controversial that they produce."

The former worker claims to have walked in on one session in "an editing bay," where "forward looking infrared (FLIR) imagery" was being edited.

"I recognized the scene as Waco."

A very interesting addition to the DSL.

It seems to contradict the assertion that discrepancies in the FBI crime lab were due to sloppy procedures and incompetance. Here we see that the FBI has access to high technology of the sort Leni Riefenstahl (sp) would have drooled over to produce her nazi propaganda films.

More depressing is that this is merely another link in a chain showing that the FBI is an agency out of control. The manner in which they were so quickly co-opted in the first days of this administration suggests that the amoral mindset was already part of the FBI culture, merely goaded into further excess by the wjc administration.

A overall corporate attitude change does not occur overnight, it requires some time to permeate an organization (identifying followers, and resisters). The process of promotion and demotion must occur quietly over a period of time, in order not to attract the attentions of the press.

Though in this instance, the press were willing from the outset to participate in the demonization of Judge Wm. Sessions prior to the Waco Massacre, just as they had rolled over for the FBI and IRS investigations of Billy Dale and the rest of the WH Travel Office.

Had Bill know the full degree of the press's allegiance to him from day one, I believe that he would have purged the FBI just as he purged the DOJ attys.

As these fact keep coming in slowly I have less and less reason to consider that Freeh or any current FBI employee has a shred of honor or integrity left. The scale of all the operations has to have involved very nearly the bulk of the entire organization in some fashion or another. And yet we have had no whistle blowers from the DOJ or FBI, no one who has said 'enough, this has got to stop!' ….."

Freeper Ol’ Dan Tucker 5/2/00 "…

….Pressed for an explanation as to how such images could be faked, the image expert explained. He described the process whereby a computer with two "peripherals," a negative scanner and a film output printer were used to fabricate a roll of film that appears to be "original," but really isn't. "What someone obviously has done is this: they had the two rolls of film all along. And I would guess that there is surely something on one or both of those rolls they don't want anyone to see. So, they simply used a common computer tool, a 'negative scanner,' to import the negative images into a graphics program.

This is true. But it doesn't take a specialized slide scanner to do this. Any flatbed scanner with a slide adapter (back lighting device) can scan slides. (or film negatives) The film output printer is known in the trade as a film recorder and is like using any printer except that it "prints" on photographic negative film (either slides or photographic) instead of paper.

Any image editing program like Adobe's Photoshop can manipulate the ordering (or deletion or doctoring) of the images.

 

Wilcher’s death was similar – is any Wilcher information relevant?

Freeper Alamo-Girl 5/2/00 "…..

One of the things we should remember is that FBI Director William Sessions was abruptly fired the day before Vince Foster died (July 20, 1993) - Freeh was appointed on the day Foster died but didn't formally assume his office until September 1, 1993. The timelines could be important in understanding the events and especially when evidence went missing from public view.

Wilcher (who was the first to point out the Delta Force involvement) was found dead about a month before Sessions was fired. Dated in between those two dates, on July 9 1993, is what appears to be a faxed, technical after-action report concerning the April 19th 1993 event at Waco; the report alleges to have been given to Sessions. (A redacted excerpt is on the 4th thread of the "theory" links.)

If there is any truth in the fax then my "theory" would be confirmed and it could coach most of the evidence coverup as theoretically justifiable to national security. Excuses such as these might have been applicable: the public could not handle the truth, there are others still out there, agents undercover would be compromised, or it may involve a secret military weapon….."

Leper Messiah 5/2/00 "….Could you help me out finding the fax, I pulled the thread up, but I'm not sure of the relevant excerpt…..

Alamo-Girl 5/2/00 "…As you requested:

July 9, 1993

In another three pages attached to the Wilcher report, very curiously dated July 9, 1993 - there are clues as to the identity of the WMD we were looking for in the "Theory" threads.

It is titled "Discussions with William Sessions" and "Do not publish names. Quid pro quo" The quid pro quo is for safety of the ones who wish to come forward about Waco. Names are omitted from the excerpt below:

  1. Purpose of the Waco raid was to target and remove seven sleepers (MK-Ultra) who refused to adhere to ASA and DIA standards…..
  2. Waco compound members had almost completed assembly of a nerve gas toxin devise massive/large enough in quantity to target and destroy all organic life in 432 square mile area. A city the size of Oklahoma City was intended. However, Houston, Texas was designated as principal target……Method of dispersal was propeller craft with running air speeds of no more than 60 miles per hour. Max cross seeding to be done at 2500 feet for East-West axis, with 2000 feet for North-South axis.
  3. The device in Waco was in very few hours of completion. Order to go in was not made by Executive Branch!!! Orders assumed "Code Actual" when the infiltrator agent residing within the complex stated "Code Blue." At that time our man (redacted) had pulled out. ATF had men in place (inside) up until two days before siege began.
  4. Reno spoke with (redacted) about a D.G.F. insertion. Reno acted as if she knew nothing about the real problem – the device!

THE DEVICE

  1. Material for the device was appropriated through A/F 1324-B. The nitrate component was acquired from Ft. Devens, MA; the volatility stabilizers were brought, via truck, from Ft Mead, MD. All raw and processed materials was provided from military stores. The gravity fuse detonators were acquired from Carewell USAF, Ft. Worth, TX.
  2. Transport personnel was found from AAA services: a subsidiary of Snelling of St. Paul, MN. There were 2 ATF officers from Galveston in the compound as the shipments arrived.
  3. Technical assistance in handling and construction were flown in to Dallas from Dover, Delaware. The techs were ASA and USA Chem Corps personnel (redacted.) CHEMICAL RAW WEIGHT – PRIOR TO (CHEMOPECTRA) SEPARATION - UNKNOWN
  4. Molten metal fused to Kitchen appliances – 65kg of sulfur/zinc volatile mass. It did not ignite past prima stage!!! The cerebro neuro toxins of the C-2 nerve gas propellant ignited under a stress measure of .25pnd/PSI, causing neuro-toxins to incinerate at 0 level. Immediate reports were unavailable for 11 hours (according to media because it was too hot to enter) due to unresolved neuro-toxic density at 0 level (entire first squad wore toxic suits and double masks.) Total recovered mass at incineration site-124 pounds(+-) Numerous base mineral clusters were found fused to small ordnance. That means: the device was in 5 parts, kept in separate munitions bunkers (level 2&3.) The mineral/gaseous mass found at ground 0 were massed to various kitchen appliances and indicate that the compound of the mass was jellied! (color believed to have ranged from green to dark olive green- prior to incineration.) Incineration occurred through the introduction of 80/90 MM 20 pound glycerine canisters which hold a flash point of 175F to accelerate the focused flash point. A C-2/4 tear gas (canister form) was inserted via 90MM Bradley barrels into the ripped structure to facilitate ignition. A combination of Oxygen and dimethyl alcohol was injected into the structure at intervals. Ignition occurred electronically; ignition for secondaries was delivered via mercury acid fuses located at canister base.

DFG removed themselves from acute perimeter by doning ATF blue jackets and baseball caps. DFG blended with ingoing ATF as they meandered back and forth to their command vehicle. The amount of lives saved at ground 0=7.

Inserted team terminated 12 by projectile to the base of skull or forehead, 10 minutes before incineration commenced.

End of report.

(redacted)

Freeper Leper Messiah follow-up "….Thanks very much. To say that I am skeptcal of some of the claims by Mr. Wilcher would be an understatement. I want to read the entire report......."

Freeper Alamo-Girl follow-up "…..The Wilcher report was indeed strikingly paranoid and I certainly understand the concerns about its reliability…… This attachment however is dated weeks after his death and runs largely counter to his theory about Waco as he presented it in the report to Reno. The "fax" is not signed by him and I don't think he contributed to it in any way…… It could be entirely bogus, I wouldn't know without checking into some of the names that were redacted. For that reason, it won't be on the Downside Legacy proper...." and "….Oops, I forgot to mention that I do have the unredacted fax and will be able to check into the names listed.... "

 

 

Other relevant background information from the Downside Legacy:

 

REMEMBERING THE DEAD - RESEARCH
WACO 2/17/00 to current
WACO 9/13/99 to 2/16/00
WACO 7/28/99 to 9/12/99
WACO BACK THEN
HOLE IN THE BUNKER AND FIREBALL RESEARCH
*BODY COUNT* RESEARCH PROJECT

It’s not on the Downside Legacy because it is only a theory, but you may find some helpful Freeper analysis of evidence here:

What Happened at Waco - Alamo-Girl's First Theory
Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3
Thread 4

Here are the rest of the links to the deaths remembered on the Downside Legacy (Waco items are listed above:)

LIST OF NAMES
SUICIDES
HOMICIDES
ACCIDENTS
NATURAL AND UNKNOWN CAUSES
WHILE ON DUTY
TRAGEDIES
UNRECORDED

RON BROWN
*MARY MAHONEY* RESEARCH PROJECT
TWA800 HERE AND NOW

 

newsmax.com 5/30/00 "……Democratic Rep. James A. Traficant says America is a virtual police state, and he worries that a leading forensic expert hired by Congress to investigate Waco may have been murdered. ……. Traficant believes too many coincidences, including Ghigliotti's death, have occurred during the Waco investigation and is now calling upon Congress to take action. The Ohio congressman is not buying official claims that Ghigliotti, age 42, died of a heart attack in his sleep. "Something stinks," he said. "Ghigliotti said the FBI lied, that they did fire automatic weapons into the burning [Branch Davidian] building," said the congressman. "But Vector Data Systems of England said the FBI did not lie. Two scientific groups totally disagree." …….. "Vector gets hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts from the FBI," continued Traficant. "To boot, FBI audio tapes of the burning building are now lost. To boot, FBI autopsy reports confiscated of victims are now missing." ......"We have developed a stone cold police state in America, believe me, from Waco, Ruby Ridge, to Miami, Florida," Traficant said. "Every American knows it, [but] no one is doing anything about it. There must be a full investigation into the death of Carlos Ghigliotti." ……"

Washington Post 5/28/00 Richard Leiby ".....WHOEVER WAS TRYING TO REACH ME hung up after only two rings. But I managed to catch the 301 area code on my caller-ID screen and thought, "Carlos." Carlos was a source I'd known for almost four years. His specialty was analyzing videotapes made during the infamous 1993 Waco siege. For months he'd been calling me every week, but I hadn't heard from him lately. I dialed his office number. A strange voice answered. .........."

Washington Post 5/28/00 Richard Leiby ".....The police had just discovered his corpse in an advanced state of decomposition at the office where he worked alone - Infrared Technologies Corp., on the third floor of a former bank building in downtown Laurel...... Nobody had seen him in weeks; nobody had reported him missing. Police found no sign of suicide or a break-in. .......On Web sites like www.freerepublic.com, his name was put on lists with others who had allegedly perished from "Arkancide" - that's what the paranoiacs called other untimely deaths they'd somehow linked to the Clinton administration.

Washington Post 5/28/00 Richard Leiby "....."I still have a lot of shocking evidence to show you," he wrote in a March 28 letter to Michael Caddell, the lead attorney in that case.......When his body was discovered, Ghigliotti's office got the scrutiny that Vince Foster's warranted after his suicide. Police sealed the premises and carted off computers and files. ..... The Justice Department's special counsel on Waco, John C. Danforth, asked a federal court to take control of all evidence from Ghigliotti's firm.......:

Washington Post 5/28/00 Richard Leiby "....."I've solved the case," he announced during one of his calls in March, urging me to come once again to his lab to review videotapes. "I know exactly what happened." But I was busy on other stories and never made it back. Now there was one more mystery to unravel: Was Carlos the final victim of Waco?......"

Washington Post 5/28/00 Richard Leiby ".....Ghigliotti claimed to already know most of the answers. He cued up one of the videotapes I'd given him. It was fuzzy but we could see men with breathing apparatus clustered around the tanks as the compound burned to the ground. According to the FBI, this was a rescue team, hoping against hope to find some Davidians alive....... "Keep your eyes on the section there," Carlos instructed. "There's a whole bunch of firing going on in there, and you see those guys standing up there? They're shooting into the complex."......"

Washington Post 5/28/00 Richard Leiby "....."I saw the tapes," she says. Once last fall her brother stayed at her home, paranoid, believing his life was in danger. He made her watch everything. "He did a second-by-second analysis of where, what, when." So the FBI is lying? "Of course," she says. "Every one of them lied." Claire decided to have her brother buried, not cremated - just in case, she says. Because maybe, someday, he might need to be exhumed........"

Washington Post 5/28/00 Richard Leiby ".....Claire has a copy of her brother's preliminary report to Burton, dated March 20. It dissects just one of the FLIR tapes from that day..... In the months before his death, he eagerly showed several people the "subjects" captured on the FLIR tape, saying these were most likely the FBI gunmen. They were impossible to see until he slowed the film to a frame-by-frame crawl on special monitors, but they were there: spectral gray images that looked and moved exactly like human beings. Or ghosts. I saw a couple of them myself. Federal forces? Who knows. The government's latest position is that no people are ever visible at the back of the compound where the tanks are......."

Washington Post 5/28/00 Richard Leiby ".....Houston lawyer Michael Caddell, representing the Davidian side, wanted Ghigliotti to be his expert witness. Visiting the lab in late March, Caddell was astonished at the detail Ghigliotti had coaxed from the FLIR and media tapes with his super-enhancing equipment. He offered him $20,000 for further analysis. "He had a better handle on this than anyone I've seen," Caddell recalls. "And he was the most reasonable in his assessments." ......"

Alamo-Girl: "….The 5/28/00 Washington Post story by Richard Leiby starts with the writer getting a call from the police at Ghigliotti's office where he is dead. It appears to me that the police hit redial on his phone to see the recipient of his last call! If indeed Ghigliotti's last call was to a reporter at the Washington Post, I suggest this from Hardy's last conversions with him is extremely important (emphasis mine:)

NewsMax.com 4/30/00 David Hardy ".......I said I'd heard statements like that -- the truth about Waco could not be explored, for fear of violence, but discarded them as agency excuses. ..... Carlos said no -- the fear is real, and it's not poppycock. The truth is really that grim. The Committee had not yet figured out how to reveal the truth without running this risk, and until it did, it had to disavow his work and sit on the other information. Much of the data was in the hands of certain key reporters (a few of whom he named), and they were sitting on it for the same reason. But it would come out in time......"

 

NewsMax.com 5/30/00 "…… "I've solved the case," said Carlos Ghigliotti. "I know exactly what happened." A month later the man who told Washington Post reporter Richard Leiby he had wrapped up the case proving the FBI had fired on the Branch Davidian compound as it was being consumed in flames was dead, at the age of 42, of an apparent heart attack. …..Not so unusual, Leiby intones. After all, Ghigliotti was a junk food eater who slept on an air mattress in his office. ……"

NewsMax.com 5/30/00 "…… That was April 28. Leiby quickly learned that Ghigliotti - one of the world's foremost experts on the arcane specialty of thermal imaging analysis, was dead. His badly decomposed body had been found dressed in pajamas and lying on an air mattress. He had been dead for some time. ……Noting that his phone rang off the hook with calls suggesting that Ghigliotti had met with foul play, the Post reporter introduced a theme than ran through his long and detailed story - people questioning the circumstances of the man's death are "paranoiacs," loonies awash in conspiracy theories, the X-Files and UFO lore. ……Here's how he put it: "The Internet boiled over with conspiracy theories. 'Carlos Ghigliotti,' stated one typical message, 'was a man who knew too much.' On Web sites like www.freerepublic.com, his name was put on lists with others who had allegedly perished from 'Arkancide' - that's what the paranoiacs called other untimely deaths they'd somehow linked to the Clinton administration."

NewsMax.com 5/30/00 "…… Yet Leiby, who by his own account was close to Ghigliotti, gives a rather complete account of Ghigliotti's work on the Waco case and the conclusions he reached about the evidence he had examined. Much of what he reports about Ghigliotti's informed conclusions about the events of that final fiery end of the Waco standoff dovetail with what the expert had told lawyer David Hardy and was first revealed on NewsMax.com. …… As he had with Leiby in the final weeks of his life, Ghigliotti told Hardy that he had solid proof that the FBI was lying when they claimed they had not fired at the rear part of the flaming building. "Carlos ... had found the holy grail," Hardy wrote. "He had proof that the FBI was lying." ….."

NewsMax.com 5/30/00 "…… "'I saw the tapes,' she says. Once last fall her brother stayed at her home, paranoid, believing his life was in danger. He made her watch everything. "'He did a second-by-second analysis of where, what, when.' "So the FBI is lying? "'Of course,' she says. 'Every one of them lied.' "Claire decided to have her brother buried, not cremated - just in case, she says. Because maybe, someday, he might need to be exhumed." ……"

NewsMax.com 5/30/00 "…… Like most members of the liberal mainstream media, Leiby seems to share their almost religious faith in coincidence - there was no connection between all those people who were in some way inconvenient to Mr. Clinton and his scandal-ridden administration and who died in often strange circumstances. Just a bunch of strange coincidences. ……… Aside from his harping on the subject, Leiby does a credible job of expressing Ghigliotti's conclusion that the flashes shown on the FLIR tapes are gunfire, that FBI men can be seen firing at the compound and that the idea that the flashes are merely sunlight reflecting on shards of glass and other debris as the FBI and the "British" experts claim, is sheer nonsense. …….And he does convey Ghigliotti's near desperation in the final days of his life to get the facts out, whether through his work with the Burton committee or in his capacity as an expert witness in the Branch Davidian lawsuit. And in this he is corroborated by Hardy, who had been given Ghigliotti's more sensational revelations in those final weeks and was sworn to secrecy. He revealed what he knew only after Ghigliotti's death. ……"

Village Voice 6/7/00 James Ridgeway "….Ghigliotti, who worked both for attorneys suing the government on behalf of victims and for Dan Burton's House Government Reform Committee, became a linchpin of the highly charged case. He was preparing a report for the committee when, on April 28, workers in his office building in Laurel, Maryland, who hadn't seen him for weeks, called authorities, saying they thought something was wrong. Entering the office of Infrared Technologies, police found Ghigliotti's badly decomposed body. There were no signs of a break-in, no evidence of suicide, and no signs of violence. ……Police quickly removed computers and files from the office. Burton's committee called for an investigation. John Danforth, special counsel on Waco, asked a federal court to take control of evidence from Ghigliotti's office. ……Richard Leiby, a Washington Post reporter who had closely covered the Waco story, said Ghigliotti had told him, "I've solved the case. I know exactly what happened." ……The funeral was small: nine mourners, including Leiby. But there was a stir in the back of the room as five dark-suited men entered, sitting together off to one side. They left quickly without talking to anyone. "They departed in an SUV behind smoked windows," Leiby reports. "None of the mourners had any idea who they were." ......"

Ian Goddard 8/4/00 "……. Perhaps the most dedicated Waco researcher I've ever known was Richard Sanford, a retired nuclear physicist and fellow founding member of the Committee for Waco Justice (CWJ). [*] It was a great loss to us all when Richard died of a sudden heart attack last week, on July 25th. Richard's fiancee donated to the CWJ all of Richard's Waco files including the FBI SWAT-team video examined at the webpage above, which Richard acquired a few years ago from attorney Linda Thompson, who acquired it from the government in a FOIA release……"

The Times U.K. 7/27/00 David Charter "…… EVERY school in England has been sent advice from the Government discouraging pupils under 16 from using mobile phones. Schools near a mobile phone base station are also advised to contact the operator to ensure its "beam of greatest intensity" does not fall across its grounds. ……The advice follows the report in May of the Independent Expert Group on Mobile Phones which recommended that children should not use them for non-essential calls. …….Guidance sent to every school this month states: "Children aged 15 and under . . . are likely to be more vulnerable to any unrecognised health risks from mobile phone use than are adults because their nervous systems are still developing. Also, because of their smaller heads, thinner skulls and higher tissue conductivity, children may absorb more energy from a mobile phone than do adults." ……"

This message was posted by George C Harvey RRT, RCP, MEd - Dir Clinical Ed, , posted on May 12, 2000 at 07:15:35 ………. Yes, Arteriosclerosis - is a chronic disease characterized by abnormal thickening and hardening of the arterial walls with resulting loss of elasticity*** AKA: Hardening of the arteries. ……. Arteriosclerosis isn't a killer in and of it's self, generally death doesn't occur from such a condition, it is the results of the secondary anomaly/ies caused by the hardening of the arteries. These are most commonly Hypertension (better known as High Blood pressure which produces CVA - cerebral vascular accident / stroke), and / or ischemia (reduced blood flow) and infarction (cellular death - Necrosis) leading to the most common cause of death - Myocardial infarction AKA Heart attack; synergistically speaking. ……. To summarize, in order for Arteriosclerosis to have killed Mr. Carlos Ghigliotty he would have had to suffer secondary afflictions of Cardiac failure, i.e. MI from prolonged hypertension, cardiac Emboli (lodged blood clot from arthriosclerotic plaque) or Stroke to the mid-brain (medulla oblongata) as a result of high blood pressure, which controls breathing or a pulmonary Emboli resulting in Respiratory failure. In any case * MI, CVA cardiac or pulmonary Emboli are clearly displayed and acknowledgeable via an autopsy. Arteriosclerosis as the single and only cause of death is simply absurd ! ……George C Harvey RRT, RCP, MEd Dir Clinical Ed, Resp Care Prog McLennan Comm College, Waco, Tx……."